Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Masaru » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:Huseng - I don't know if its just Japanese Buddhism that is in permanent decline. I am just not sure any tradition is going to continue to maintain large rolls of renunciates. If economic development continues on the current trajectory, if culture and education continue on the current trajectories - the incentives to renounce will increasingly disappear. I am pretty sure, Buddhism the world over is in permanent decline. At least as we've come to expect now. I don't think this means we lose the Buddhadharma because of this.

Queequeg wrote:This practice in turn is founded in the common notion by the Kamakura period that Buddhism had entered the Age of Decline (Mappo) (In light of Mappo, you may be 10 centuries late in calling the permanent decline of Japanese Buddhism ;) )

Mappo brings me to a statement by Saicho - I don't have the exact quote - "A person observing the precepts in the Latter Day will be as rare as seeing a tiger in the marketplace". As I read your article, I was waiting for you to bring it up.

Queequeg wrote:One last note - the Sohei - the armed monks - I suspect those guys claimed legitimacy based on the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. According to passages in that sutra, after Mappo, it is permissible for white clothed laymen to take up arms to defend true bhiksus. That's the theoretical basis. The reality, a whole other story.

Huseng wrote:
Queequeg wrote:Huseng - I don't know if its just Japanese Buddhism that is in permanent decline.


Buddhism around the world is largely in statistical decline as far as I can tell. The government statistics in various Asian countries seem to indicate this. Younger generations are drifting towards secularism or in some cases Christianity. In much of East Asia Buddhism is associated with the past. It is old, unfashionable and meaningless to a lot of youth.

I am just not sure any tradition is going to continue to maintain large rolls of renunciates. If economic development continues on the current trajectory, if culture and education continue on the current trajectories - the incentives to renounce will increasingly disappear.


Economic contraction will start to occur sooner or later when conventional oil production starts its long decline. Alternative fossil fuels and alternative energy resources do not pack the same energy on return. This coupled with climate change will make for very hard economic times, to say nothing of demographics and so on.

Actually in times of sustained economic hardship (like dark ages), monasticism flourishes because it offers stability in times when having children is unaffordable and collective living makes a lot of economic sense.

Buddhism could possibly bounce back in such circumstances. Such circumstances will occur unless some miracle technology is developed, but don't count on it.

Queequeg wrote:Hi Huseng,

If humanity returns to some dark ages, that will be truly unfortunate. I don't think that is by any means certain, but at the same time I couldn't really argue against your points. To me, spreading Dharma would be a significant factor in whether we can avoid such a dark future - and I don't necessarily think it has to be monastic Buddhism. Deepening understanding of cause and effect and Buddhist psychology, meditative practices, etc. would have profound and far reaching effects.


Excerpts from a discussion in the Tendai forum concerning Saicho's reforms. My topic here is addressing what Buddhist organizations or concerned individuals could do to maintain and propagate Dharma--specifically Nichiren Hokke Buddhism--during a long-term global, technological and societal degeneration.

Before you go guffawing about tin-foil hats and such, just keep in mind that history often proves to us that the "impossible" is only impossible until it happens--and it happens fairly often. The fall of Rome, the Mongol invasions, the European expansion, (in regards to the cultures Europe impacted such as the Meso-Americans and the Chinese,) and 9-11. Though to some the whole topic may seem as outlandish and ridiculous as the idea of little green men landing on the White House lawn, keep in mind that even the U.S. government takes some time out of its day and money out of its budget to direct some thought towards just exactly we would do if little green men did land on the White House lawn.

Maybe it's just because I'm from Texas, or perhaps it's the high chlorine content in the local water supply, but I have to wonder whether my branch of the Buddhist community (or even the larger Buddhist community) has any long term plan for how they will go about saturating Buddhadharma into Western culture if the oil, money and lattes start to run thin and then to a halt.

What kind of plan would you devise?
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A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:49 pm

Masaru wrote:What kind of plan would you devise?
Same as always in the past. Gain attainments and either become a ruler, or gain influence over someone who is.

It's how Tibet and Mongolia became Buddhist. Japan too to an extent. Burma too I believe.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Masaru » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:41 pm

I'm also thinking about the preservation of texts and the transmission of tradition if there is a somewhat sudden collapse of certain infrastructure like telecommunications or even electricity. I know the Tibetan lineages are still using a monastic model which is perfectly built for such situations, but I'm not sure how the organizational structures in Nichiren Buddhism would hold through in the West. I think we kind of take modernity for granted.
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Indrajala » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:56 pm

If I could I would want to assemble a multi-lingual library deep in the very dry Himalayas with printed editions of all the canons, plus dictionaries and grammars.

If I could I'd actually seal it in a cave, too.

Just look at what happened with Dunhuang after someone did just that...

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogao_Caves

They used to stick a lot texts inside stupas, but they're too vulnerable to the environment and raiders.

It might sound crazy, but I'd like to think it was an offering to a distant future.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby floating_abu » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:18 pm

Greetings Masaru :hi:

In my tradition, we don't propogate as such, and maybe everyone has a different take on it. My take is that dharma knowledge is just like all things: it will wax and it will wane but of course on the other hand, simultaneously what is sometimes called Dharmakaya, Buddha, Dhamma, all these things are perfectly eternal...i.e. they will never ..well disappear and appear does not even apply.. Anyway a Buddha is said to discover the Dharma again when the current age wanes, but this is just a rediscovery of what is always there..perhaps this is just in keeping with the laws of nature and in any case even the future of mankind is unclear, let alone Buddhism. There are so many wars, so much conflict in peoples' hearts and that spills over into each other..that is just the way the world (samsara) operates. My personal opinion is to not to worry so much about whether your order will survive or not, I apologise if that is offensive but that is just my view. My opinion is that each person can only genuine uphold or "save" their tradition/teachings if they practice to the depth of those teachings AND are also willing to actualise that truth through, in, and from their lives. I used to think the former was hard, but now I think the latter is perhaps even harder too. But the first step is critical. But regardless -- if that happens, then the tradition is saved because there is then a flame of potentiality in transmitting, lighting the real flame so to speak for ongoing generations. If that practice is not real anyway, then all the cults, trappings, traditions, beliefs, orders, groups, hierarchies, books etc woud not be important because if the substance is lost, then IMO the shell can also die as it would no longer be faithful to the real teachings of Gautama Buddha, and the Ancestors of the past who worked very hard to know and actualise those truths. My final point would be there is no need to look for people, the teachings of Lord Buddha is the teaching of suffering, of dukkha: in this day and age there will be more.

FWIW.

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:09 am

'I am delivered, O Bhikkhus, from all fetters, human and divine. You, O Bhikkhus, are also delivered from all fetters, human and divine. Go ye now, O Bhikkhus, and wander, for the gain of the many, for the welfare of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the good, for the gain, and for the welfare of gods and men, Let not two of you go the same way, Preach, O Bhikkhus, the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, glorious at the end, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim a consummate, perfect, and pure life of holiness. There are beings whose mental eyes are covered by scarcely any dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them, they cannot attain salvation. They will understand the doctrine.

Mahavagga 11.1
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm

Buddhadharma did not just fall out of a tree and hit any of us in the head. Each of us who has the treasure of Buddhadharma in our lives has a lineage of teachers to be deeply grateful toward, tracing to Gautama himself. And how did this come to be? It started because Gautama, in his deep compassion, felt compelled to teach, as did each person in the subsequent position. I don't know if this is an exclusively Lotus Sutra view, but the Buddha's enlightened (non-)activity is the perpetual revelation of the True Aspect, and when we share even a little bit of Buddhadharma, even without understanding it, we manifest as the Buddha's own pure and far reaching voice.

They say, if you want to know the present, look at the past, and if you want to know the future, look at the present. How will Buddhadharma spread into the future? I think the same way it has. I think there are plenty of wise folk around who know the answer to that and are taking action accordingly, even as the answer may differ from one person to the next - there is no single means of propagation - we're swarm. :smile:
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:29 am

Follow up...

That was kind of opaque.

I have to wonder whether my branch of the Buddhist community (or even the larger Buddhist community) has any long term plan for how they will go about saturating Buddhadharma into Western culture if the oil, money and lattes start to run thin and then to a halt.


No oil? Burn coal and build nuclear reactors. Money is already pretty thin - its paper. As long as there are commodities, even if its just ass, there will be trade. No lattes? Milk tea.

If humanity gets to the point that books get scarce again, and we're living in some distopian afterworld, Buddhism survives so long as Buddhists survive, going back to the old fashioned way of passing it on - Sitting up on the full moon nights and telling stories: "Thus I heard..."
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Masaru » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:Follow up...

That was kind of opaque.

I have to wonder whether my branch of the Buddhist community (or even the larger Buddhist community) has any long term plan for how they will go about saturating Buddhadharma into Western culture if the oil, money and lattes start to run thin and then to a halt.


No oil? Burn coal and build nuclear reactors. Money is already pretty thin - its paper. As long as there are commodities, even if its just ass, there will be trade. No lattes? Milk tea.

If humanity gets to the point that books get scarce again, and we're living in some distopian afterworld, Buddhism survives so long as Buddhists survive, going back to the old fashioned way of passing it on - Sitting up on the full moon nights and telling stories: "Thus I heard..."


Ass is a commodity that has to be traded for? Pfff. Not if you're a charmer.

Coffee is imported. If the effects of climate change, overpopulation, and peak oil bottleneck together I could envision that coffee and other items might go short for a significant amount of time. As far as the Sutras, I'm not really worried about a paper shortage. Instability due to societal breakdown might make for a hectic and violent situation for quite a while. I imagine lots of things would get destroyed--including books and Sutra canons. It might all be archived digitally somewhere, but what if that archive isn't open to public access?

Please just indulge my paranoia. :x
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:25 pm

Masaru wrote:As far as the Sutras, I'm not really worried about a paper shortage. Instability due to societal breakdown might make for a hectic and violent situation for quite a while. I imagine lots of things would get destroyed--including books and Sutra canons. It might all be archived digitally somewhere, but what if that archive isn't open to public access?


We could make a series of archives that are open in several places. A best solution would be an orbiting archive available online (assuming that online access will survive in some form).

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Masaru » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:46 pm

kirtu wrote:
Masaru wrote:As far as the Sutras, I'm not really worried about a paper shortage. Instability due to societal breakdown might make for a hectic and violent situation for quite a while. I imagine lots of things would get destroyed--including books and Sutra canons. It might all be archived digitally somewhere, but what if that archive isn't open to public access?


We could make a series of archives that are open in several places. A best solution would be an orbiting archive available online (assuming that online access will survive in some form).

Kirt


Well yeah. If we had infinity dollars we could just send it into space or even just park it on the moon, maybe with a some kind of hard copy inside the tiny craft with a repeating binary copy etched onto one or multiple surfaces. But that's far fetched.

Maybe even just a combined copy of all of the Sutras with relevant commentaries combined into a single source which would then be distributed widely along with plank O-mandalas with a reverse image on the other side for making prints. That way, anyone carrying those two items could "carry the tradition" along with them with only two items--a large book and a wood plank of similar dimensions.

Even if the book had to have tiny, almost microscopic print. So long as it was legible through a magnifying glass.
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:54 pm

Masaru wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Masaru wrote:As far as the Sutras, I'm not really worried about a paper shortage. Instability due to societal breakdown might make for a hectic and violent situation for quite a while. I imagine lots of things would get destroyed--including books and Sutra canons. It might all be archived digitally somewhere, but what if that archive isn't open to public access?


We could make a series of archives that are open in several places. A best solution would be an orbiting archive available online (assuming that online access will survive in some form).

Kirt


Well yeah. If we had infinity dollars we could just send it into space or even just park it on the moon, maybe with a some kind of hard copy inside the tiny craft with a repeating binary copy etched onto one or multiple surfaces. But that's far fetched.


Nope, we construct a mini-satellite that can be parked in orbit by piggy-backing on a normal satellite mission. There is a precedent for this having happened now several times. By mini-satellite I mean something around the size of a coffee can or smaller (Moore's Law is our friend) with low power consumption and transmission. This would all be solid state so no moving parts. As it is intended to be a survivable archive it would need to be hardened and that is where the cost comes in. It could probably be done for < $1M and perhaps much less (some mini-satellites have been launched by high schools although they did not stay in orbit long).

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:03 pm

Masaru wrote: Not if you're a charmer.

:facepalm:


OK, humoring...

All you need is Sandaihiho - Three Great Hidden Dharmas - 1. Gohonzon (Object of Veneration/Devotion), 2. Daimoku (August Title of the Sutra), and 3. Kaidan (Precept Platform).

Depending on your interpretation of Nichiren, this can mean different things. I'll give my take. Sectarians rooting for their home teams will reproach me.

1. In Nichiren's mature thought, the Gohonzon is:

The Treasure Tower suspended in the air over the Saha world. The Title of the Lotus Sutra 妙法蓮華経 (Myoho Renge Kyo) appears in the middle of the tower, flanked by the Tathagatas Shakyamuni (right) and Prabhutaratna (left), attended by the four leaders of the Bodhisattvas who emerged from the Earth, Bodhisattvas Visistacaritra, Anantacaritra, Visuddhacaritra, and Supratisthitacaritra. Manjusri, Maitreya, and other bodhisattvas are seated below. Bodhisattvas who are attendants of Trace Buddhas are on the ground. Buddhas of the Ten Directions are also on the ground.

When Nichiren inscribed his Jukkaimandara (10 Worlds Mandalas) he also included Zhiyi (Tendai Daishi) and Saicho (Dengyo Daishi) also seated on the ground along with various protective deities like the Dragon King's Daughter, Kishimojin and her ten daughters. Fudo Myo'o and Aizen Myo'o flank the entire assembly, and the four corners of the mandala are guarded by the Four Heavenly Kings.

Like many mandalas, Nichiren's mandala is filled with symbolism. In the whole, it is an exposition on the Three Thousand in the Single moment of Mind (一念三千) The tower suspended in the air indicates that the Trikaya Root Buddha (本佛), ie. Shakyamuni, is unconditioned, timeless, unarisen, non-perishing, eternal, as are all the other beings suspended in the air. The beings on the ground symbolize the Buddha's functions in the conditioned realm, his Upaya (skillful means) ("Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others..."). Fudo represents the "Nirvana is Samsara" and Aizen represents "Earthly Desires are Enlightenment"). If you understand how Zhiyi derived Three Thousand in the Single Moment of Mind, the symbolism on the Gohonzon is apparent.

If you can "read" Nichiren's Mandala, you don't need any other texts. With that said, the fact is, you need teachers, texts, etc. to explain it to you.

2. Daimoku - This literally means the "August Title", and in Nichiren's case, specifically refers to the title of the Lotus Sutra. However, when we say "Daimoku", it also includes "南無" ("Nam/Namu" - there are other threads to debate what's right). Appending this to the Daimoku turns this into a statement of devotion or dedication or homage. Nichiren's basic practice is chanting this formula "Nammyohorengekyo". Whether you understand what "Myohorengekyo" means or not, chanting it puts you on the orientation of "Right View".

When chanted before the Gohonzon, this becomes the actualization of Enlightened Activity. It can also include Contemplation of Ichinen Sanzen, and any number of other practices that are Opened to Reveal the True... Heck, if you've really penetrated this wisdom, you could make Christmas Midnight Mass into Enlightened Activity, or even Roasting the Condemned in Avici; the enlightenment of a Dung Beetle, rolling up little balls of excrement and happily slurping it down... Mahasiddhas will be able to relate to this Beyond Good and Evil stuff.

3. Kaidan - Literally, this means the platform on which monks/nuns take the precepts. However, because in Nichiren Buddhism which builds upon Saicho's Bodhisattva Precepts of Sudden and Perfect Enlightenment, anywhere the Lotus Sutra is practiced becomes the precept platform. In particular, when one chants the Daimoku in front of the Gohonzon, that place is the Kaidan.

So, at the minimum, in terms of material objects, you need the Gohonzon - Nichiren's Mandala. The Daimoku and Kaidan come into being through the words and actions of the practitioner.

More comprehensively, you need teachers, and books, and fellow practitioners, and beings to teach, (as well as beings to persecute you) to fully practice. All of these are of course included in a broad sense in the Sandaihiho - which in the broadest sense encompasses all the Dharmadhatu (the Three Thousand). Taking this expansive interpretation, we end up with the Lotus Sutra being all life, and practice being all life. Living IS the Lotus Sutra, is the Buddha, is Threefold Inclusive Ultimate Reality, is True Aspect.

After all that, you come back out of the looking glass - where ever you go, there you are. :hi:

On more practical levels - maybe you consider its OK for you as a layman to arm yourself and protect the True Dharma... but only to defend a True Monk... Walking Dead style, or The Road http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/

Do we really need to open up this Mahaparinirvana Sutra can of ethical worms? Last time we talked about this, our friend Dave had a meltdown.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Son of Buddha » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:10 am

Masaru wrote:I'm also thinking about the preservation of texts and the transmission of tradition if there is a somewhat sudden collapse of certain infrastructure like telecommunications or even electricity. I know the Tibetan lineages are still using a monastic model which is perfectly built for such situations, but I'm not sure how the organizational structures in Nichiren Buddhism would hold through in the West. I think we kind of take modernity for granted.



Nichiren Buddhism would be fine in that situation strong faith.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Masaru » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:On more practical levels - maybe you consider its OK for you as a layman to arm yourself and protect the True Dharma... but only to defend a True Monk... Walking Dead style, or The Road http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/

Do we really need to open up this Mahaparinirvana Sutra can of ethical worms? Last time we talked about this, our friend Dave had a meltdown.


Dave didn't understand the significance of Chungdrag Dorje's work in his current incarnation, all of which is teaching expounding upon the bountiful merit of defending the True Law.

Check out the Buddhist Defense League to see why such teachings are necessary:
http://www.facebook.com/BuddhistDefenceLeague

Queequeg wrote:Nichiren's basic practice is chanting this formula "Nammyohorengekyo". Whether you understand what "Myohorengekyo" means or not, chanting it puts you on the orientation of "Right View".

When chanted before the Gohonzon, this becomes the actualization of Enlightened Activity. It can also include Contemplation of Ichinen Sanzen, and any number of other practices that are Opened to Reveal the True... Heck, if you've really penetrated this wisdom, you could make Christmas Midnight Mass into Enlightened Activity, or even Roasting the Condemned in Avici; the enlightenment of a Dung Beetle, rolling up little balls of excrement and happily slurping it down... Mahasiddhas will be able to relate to this Beyond Good and Evil stuff.

Queequeg wrote:Walking Dead style, or The Road http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/


I've been perusing the blogosphere and have come across an interesting prediction that I feel holds some weight - at least for my part of the country:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ ... order.html
Many Americans barely remember that the southwestern quarter of the United States used to be the northern half of Mexico. Most of them never learned that the Mexican War, the conflict that made that happen, was a straightforward act of piracy. (As far as I know, nobody pretended otherwise at the time—the United States in those days had not yet fallen into the habit of dressing up its acts of realpolitik in moralizing cant.) North of the Rio Grande, if the Mexican War comes to mind at all, it’s usually brushed aside with bland insouciance: we won, you lost, get over it. South of the Rio Grande? Every man, woman and child knows all the details of that war, and they have not gotten over it.

That might not matter much on this side of the border, except for two things. The first, which I’ve discussed here several times, is the dominant fact of 21st century North American geopolitics, the failure of US settlement in the dryland West.

One pattern that has plenty of examples on offer is the evolution of borderland regions caught between an imperial power and a much poorer and less technologically complex society. Imperial China and central Asia, the Roman world and the Germanic barbarians, the Toltecs of ancient Mexico and their Chichimec neighbors to the north—well, the list goes on. It’s a very common feature of history, and it unfolds in a remarkably precise and stereotyped way.

it’s when a physical wall goes up along the border that the imperial power, in effect, serves notice to its historians that its days are numbered.

As economic and political stresses mount along the boundary, social order collapses and institutions disintegrate, leaving power in the hands of a distinctive social form, the warband—a body of mostly young men whose sole trade is violence, and who are bound by personal loyalties to a charismatic warlord. At first, nascent warbands strive mostly with one another and with the crumbling institutions of their own countries, [ed: We are here <--] but before long their attention turns to the much richer pickings to be found on the other side of the wall. Raids and counter-raids plunge the region into a rising spiral of violence that the warbands can afford much more easily than the imperial government.

As warbands rise, coalesce, and begin probing across the border, the machinery that concentrates wealth in the hands of the dominant minority begins to break apart; tax revenues plunge as wealth turns into warband plunder, and the imperial state’s capacity to enforce its will dwindles. The end comes when the internal proletariat, pushed to the breaking point by increasingly frantic demands from the dominant minority, throws its support to the external proletariat—or, more to the point, to the successful leadership of one or more of the external proletariat’s biggest warbands—and the empire begins its final collapse into a congeries of protofeudal statelets.


So when the U.S. begins to show signs of serious decline, it's not at all unlikely that the Robin Hood organized crime cartels from Mexico will begin to make way into the southwest U.S., effectively taking control of local governments and replacing debauched local officials fed by extortion with a system of efficient, honor-bound ruthlessness. In fact, this system already exists as a daily reality in most of Mexico while the cartels provide work supplying untold mountains of illegal drugs to the voracious contraband market in El Norte.

I know our friend (Myoho-)Nameless quoted something elsewhere stating that women as a whole tend to be more religious, but I've also come across studies showing that religiosity in men is linked to militaristic behavior and patterns that support strong in-group bonding. Just as Samurai were often faithful cynics, so are quite a few military men, and so are mafiosos and the cartel bosses who donate heavily to the Catholic church. If the southwest is overtaken by men like that, not only will real persecution begin, but also the opportunity to disseminate the Dharma in a profoundly effective way.

I can also definitely see a problem with organized crime and "mafia feudalism" if there's a mass migration northward due to climate change. (A lot can happen over 50 years or so.) I think the biggest obstacle to propagation is the danger of having the teaching destroyed here since the Lotus Sutra and Buddhist works in general are nowhere near as common in the region as the Bible or even the Koran.

Queequeg wrote:
Masaru wrote: Not if you're a charmer.

:facepalm:


Sometimes the truth is ugly. :P

:rolleye:

Huseng wrote:It might sound crazy, but I'd like to think it was an offering to a distant future.

No worries, Huseng, you're in good company. :D
A certain man said to the priest Shungaku, "The Lotus Sutra Sect's character is not good because it's so fearsome." Shungaku replied, "It is by reason of its fearsome character that it is the Lotus Sutra Sect. If its character were not so, it would be a different sect altogether."
-- The Hagakure

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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:03 am

Masaru wrote:I've been perusing the blogosphere and have come across an interesting prediction that I feel holds some weight - at least for my part of the country:


One of my best friends is a half grown Honduran dude. When I saw Apocalypto, I joked that it was like they had cloned him to populate the cast. However, I know the last laugh will be his as the brown skinned natives of this land take over again. There is definitely something Aztec in the methods of these cartels.

O good man! In the past - innumerable, boundless, asamkhyas of kalpas past - there appeared in this town of Kusinagara a Buddha who was the Alms-deserving, the All-Enlightened One, the All-accomplished One, the Well-gone, the All-knower, the Unsurpassed One, the Best Trainer, the Teacher of Heaven and Earth, the Buddha-World-Honoured One, and whose name was "Tathagata of Joy-and-Benefit-Augmentation." At that time, the world was wide and gloriously pure, rich and peaceful. The people were at the height of prosperity and no hunger was felt. He [They] looked like the Bodhisattvas of the Land of Peace and Happiness. That Buddha-World-Honoured One stayed in the world for an innumerable length of time. Having taught the people, he entered Parinirvana between the twin sal trees. The Buddha having entered Nirvana, the teaching remained in the world for countless billions of years and in the last part of the remaining 40 years the Buddhist teaching had still not died. At that time, there was a bhiksu called "Enlightened-Virtuous", who upheld the precepts well and was surrounded by many of his relatives. He raised the lion’s roar and preached all the nine types of sutras. He taught, saying: "Do not keep menials, men or women, cows, sheep or whatever might go against the precepts." At that time there were many bhiksus who were acting contrary to the precepts. On hearing this, they entertained ill-will and came upon this bhiksu, brandishing swords and staffs. At that time, there was a king called "Virtuous". He heard of this. To protect Dharma, he came to where the bhiksu was delivering his sermons and fought against the evil doers so that the bhiksu did not suffer. The king, however, received wounds all over his body. Then the bhiksu, Enlightened-Virtuous, praised the king, saying: "Well done, well done, O King! You are a person who protects Wonderful Dharma. In days to come, you will become the unsurpassed utensil of Dharma." The king listened to his sermon and rejoiced. Then he died and was born in the land of Buddha Akshobhya and became his foremost disciple. The subjects of this king, his relatives and soldiers were all glad and did not retrogress in their Bodhichitta [resolve to gain Enlightenment]. When the day came to depart the world, they were born in the land of Buddha Akshobhya. At the time when Wonderful Dharma is about to die out, one should act and protect Dharma like this. O Kasyapa! The king at that time was I; the bhiksu who delivered the sermon was Buddha Kasyapa. O Kasyapa! One who guards Wonderful Dharma is recompensed with such incalculable fruition. That is why I today adorn my body in various ways and have perfectly achieved the indestructible Dharma-Body...

"O good man! That is why I allow those who uphold the precepts to be accompanied by the white-clad people [lay people, non-monks] with the sword and staff. Although all kings, ministers, rich lay men [grhapati] and upasakas may possess the sword and staff for protecting Dharma, I call this upholding the precepts. You may possess the sword and staff, “but do not take life”. If things are thus, we call this first-hand upholding of the precepts."

Mahaparinirvana Sutra http://www.nirvanasutra.net/convenient/Mahaparinirvana_Sutra_Yamamoto_Page_2007.pdf p.44-45

Is that what you're looking for? Buddha's instructions to pack.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby PorkChop » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Wow, what a blatant re-writing of history.
You guys should look at the Republic of Texas Constitution some time, specifically the number of native Tejanos that signed the Texas Constitution - it wasn't all whitey.
A lot of people were sick of how the government in Mexico City was running things, both Texas and Coahuila seceded because they didn't like Santa Anna's power grab.
There are plenty of war heroes from the Texas Revolution that were native Tejanos; a lot of my friends are proud descendants of those natives.
Texas fought for its independence, it's not a land in occupation.

As far as the cartels, they do not really have the love of the people - at least not on this side of the border.
Even people I know from Juarez are particularly upset at the cartels having killed most of the economy there due to the complete disappearance of tourism.
Say what you want about the evils of the US, the military, the modern culture, or whatever; but I have a hard time seeing a band of murderers with relatively small support outside of their home territories taking over even San Antonio (with it's 6 military bases), let alone the whole state - which has some of the largest & most-populated cities in the US and a ton of military bases.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:16 pm

Porkchop,

You might not catch the tongue in cheek over these internets.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby PorkChop » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:Porkchop,

You might not catch the tongue in cheek over these internets.


Sorry, I guess I must be missing something.
The first couple sentences of that blog post quote are wildly inaccurate.
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby viniketa » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:48 pm

PorkChop wrote:Wow, what a blatant re-writing of history.
You guys should look at the Republic of Texas Constitution some time, specifically the number of native Tejanos that signed the Texas Constitution - it wasn't all whitey.
A lot of people were sick of how the government in Mexico City was running things, both Texas and Coahuila seceded because they didn't like Santa Anna's power grab.
There are plenty of war heroes from the Texas Revolution that were native Tejanos; a lot of my friends are proud descendants of those natives.
Texas fought for its independence, it's not a land in occupation.

As far as the cartels, they do not really have the love of the people - at least not on this side of the border.
Even people I know from Juarez are particularly upset at the cartels having killed most of the economy there due to the complete disappearance of tourism.
Say what you want about the evils of the US, the military, the modern culture, or whatever; but I have a hard time seeing a band of murderers with relatively small support outside of their home territories taking over even San Antonio (with it's 6 military bases), let alone the whole state - which has some of the largest & most-populated cities in the US and a ton of military bases.


I live within a couple of hours of SA, and can confirm all this. Few here are anxious to secede; the ones who are are typically 30-something urban cowboys, with a very few old-timers thrown in.

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Dharma and long-term economic recession.

Postby Queequeg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:55 pm

No worries, PC. I think there are various degrees of seriousness in this thread. But I think this kind of sets the tone...

Masaru wrote: :spy: :alien: :spy: / :sage: :buddha1: :sage:


Its a "what if a zombie apocalypse wiped out 99% of mankind... what then?" kind of discussion, except its premised on Peak Oil and various other more probable disasters. That said - are these disaster scenarios really that far fetched?

All it takes is a big storm... http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/11/07/homeowners-issue-warnings-to-looters-following-superstorm-sandy/

But this has really haunted me.

http://youtu.be/533609lZXk4

http://youtu.be/SBva-z1AsGk
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