Why not Theravada

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Grigoris
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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Grigoris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:05 pm

There is also the fact that most Tibetan lineages trace their origin to India. Indian Buddhists, due to their proximity to the atman "positive" theories of their Hindu opponents, guarded closely against the incursion of pro-atman ideas into Buddhism.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:16 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:22 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:37 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Grigoris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:38 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby songhill » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:39 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Son of Buddha, I have read the Lotus Sutra and its commentary by Ven. Hsuan Hua. I have also read parts of the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras.
It is not possible at the moment for me to read through the entire Mahayana Sutra basket (for one thing, I have responsibilities). But I can tell you I was not immediately convinced of the Tibetan approach. I studied with teachers in Theravada and Chinese Mahayana as well- and I have listened to many of the lectures on the East Asian Mahayana side of things, for example by Ven. Heng Sure (both in person and online).
Having heard these different presentations, I find that actually the Classification mentioned by Berzin makes quite a lot of sense. I also have some degree of faith in Tsongkhapa and Gampopa, who uphold this view and also makes the Sutra basket approachable and applicable in practice through their masterly meditation manuals- Lam Rim Chenmo and Jewel Ornament. Also, from having attended many of HH Dalai Lama's teachings on a variety of topics, but especially his teachings on the Diamond Sutra and Heart sutra, my confidence has increased even more. You might be interested to know that when HHDL teaches on these "Middle Wheel" sutras, regarded as the definitive according to the Tibetan system, highly regarded scholars from both the Korean Chogye order and Taiwanese monasteries attend in great numbers. Sometimes hundreds of east asian sangha show up.
I think the danger is that without wise guidance from realized commentators, one can go off on many tangents quoting from Sutras, but not realize their intent. The danger is one can find passages to defend one's own idea about things. Therefore, I have chosen to follow the example of great teachers such as HHDL (to the extent of my limited capacity) and use the commentarial literature from the Great Indian Pandits of Nalanda University and associated texts by the well regarded Tibetan scholars like Tsongkhapa, Gampopa and Sakya Pandita.

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby songhill » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:51 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:53 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Grigoris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Yes, but that does not autmoatically mean that anything that is not based in the skhanda is self. Just because something is not white, does not mean that it is black.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby songhill » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:00 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:11 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby songhill » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:25 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:26 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:40 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:44 pm

In Lam Rim Chenmo Tsongkhapa quotes extensively from the Sutras. This is even more so in his other more exhaustive works on emptiness. Similarly, Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti quote exhaustively from the Sutras in their works. The works of Tsongkhapa, Sakya Pandia and others had as their precedent the commentaries of the Indian Pandits, so it is not like this is just a Tibetan innovation.

I don't recommend Berzin lightly, he is one of a very few Westerners to have studied really extensively with the mind to present what he learned in a way that makes sense to Westerners.

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Grigoris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:11 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Admin_PC » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:32 pm


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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:07 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Why not Theravada

Postby Grigoris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:01 pm

Okay. To recapitulate:

One group claims that the Buddha considers Nirvana as the True Self and bases this claim on excerpts from the Tathagatagarbha group of Sutras.

Another group claims that the entire Pali Canon, Sutras in the Mahayana Canon and the Tantras show that the Buddha considers both the conventional and the True Self as not existing.

And never the twain shall meet.

Both sides have laid out the arguments, logic and scriptural basis for their view so I'm going to put this one to rest and let those who read this thread decide for themselves. If anybody has anything (intelligent) to add that has not already been said please feel free to contact me.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


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