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The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:15 am

If you refer to the diagram in my previous post, 1. and 5. interact thru Contact (phassa), which then give rise to the Mental Factors (Feeling, Perception, Volitional Formation). Number 4. with your question marks should be Volitional Formation (sankhara). The Abhidhamma further divides sankhara into 50 something sub-mental factors (hatred, envy, miserliness, etc.). Since these Emotions are mental factors, they should belong to number 4., sankhara..

danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby danieLion » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:52 pm


santa100
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:02 pm

As mentioned, emotions belong to number 4., volitional formation, not number 2., feeling. So, there's no contradiction..

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adosa
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby adosa » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:50 pm

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

santa100
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:43 pm

Again, if you reference the diagram in my previous post, notice Feeling is part of the Mental Factors group. In your example, when you're excited about something, that means you're "attracted to", "like it", or "attached to" it, these are all volitional formation. But be careful when saying this volitional formation "causes" a feeling because that would imply a sequential relationship which volitional formation occurs first, and then give rise to feeling. Instead, feeling arises simultaneously when Form meets Consciousness thru Contact. This is why Feeling is grouped into the Mental Factors group along with Perception and Volitional Formation..

danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby danieLion » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:39 am


danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby danieLion » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:50 am

Thanks again everyone.
If emotions are not part of the five aggregates, that removes much of the "redundancy" I mis-perceived there. It might help me to get a better understanding of what the Buddha taught about emotions and mind. I incorrectly assumed all Buddhists consider emotions a part of mind. In other words, I'm going to do a thorough search in Dhamma Wheel before I add any more posts (if any). So if anyone knows of good threads here on mind or emotions please link them for me.
Warmly,
Dan
PS: Some of the confusion for might be that some popular meditation teachers I've read and listened to online teach "mindfulness of emotions" as part of the Feeling "Pillar" of Satipatthana. Did the Buddha teach "mindfulness of emotions"?

danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby danieLion » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:09 am


rowyourboat
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:06 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:48 am


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daverupa
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby daverupa » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:32 pm


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:30 pm


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adosa
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby adosa » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:54 pm

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

santa100
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby santa100 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:57 pm


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daverupa
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby daverupa » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:53 pm


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khaaan
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby khaaan » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:40 am

I consider emotion to be a feedback loop involving multiple aggregates. Think of tensing your abdomen in fear (sankhara) along with the associated sensation (vedana) in the pit of your stomach, probably associated with a repetitive stream of thoughts at the mind door.

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Ben
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:53 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby danieLion » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:42 am

Hi friends,

Sorry it took so long getting back.

The last three posts have pretty much answered my question about Buddhism and emotions, so thank you. I am still reading through the other "emotion" threads here and might have some more discussion points when I am done.

Relation the khandas to dependent origination (DO) is slow going but worth it for me. In retrospect a better question might have been, "What is the importance of repetitiveness and apparent repetitiveness in the teachings of the Buddha?" because that is the question this thread and the investigation it has inspired seems to be providing answers for.

Warmly,

Dan

danieLion
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me NO MORE!

Postby danieLion » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:50 am

Hi,
I have concluded (for now?) that the redundancy I thought was there was due to my ignorance of the Pali. I have also concluded that the neither the Buddha nor his culture viewed human psychology emotively. Etymologically, emotion is of French-Latin origin. Emotion--along with the bulk of the ideas of the Western philosophical-psychological tradition--is a much newer (not too mention geographically differentiated) idea than "the psychology" of the Buddha. I neither mean that one is less complex or more sophisticated than the other nor that there is no overlap.

In addition to my linguistic, historical, geographical and cultural assumptions, part of my confusion came from the fact the many Western meditation teachers teach "Mindfulness of Emotions." For example, I heard Joseph Goldstein talk about the Rolodex of emotions you go through when you use this technique without explaining the Buddha (as far as I can tell) never taught "Mindfulness of Emotions." "Mental noting" emotions like this just seems like more saññā and/or-sankhāra. Ironically, the first person to ever point the idea to me that the emotional label on you stick on a feeling doesn't matter as much as mindfulness of the feeling is a Western (non-Buddhist?) psychotherapist. In general, though, psychologists can't agree on what the "primary" emotions are--although there is a general consenssus (with lots of quibbling): fear, anger, sadness, agitation, surprise, guilt and joy. I know the Buddha's teachings sometimes addressed fear, anger, sadness, agitation, guilt and joy. Did he ever teach on surprise?

I am not saying emotion theory is wrong for Buddhists, or that Buddhist practice is wrong for those who assume the validity of emotions. But I am saying that if you have been conditioned to believe in emotion, then that is one more view (sanna-sankhara?) you have to work with. The problem is that--again, as far as I know, the Buddha had much to say, for example, on anger. But he never said anything about which aggregates, dependent oriination links, six sense bases, etc..., comprise anger.

So, unless others want to continue with a topic something like, "What did the Buddha teach, if anything, about emotion?", I feel my questions have been answered. Thanks again to all. Each post helped.
Peace,
Dan

nameless
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Re: The Five Aggregates Seem Redundant To Me

Postby nameless » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:07 pm

Anger is part of the three poisons (greed, anger, ignorance, though translated differently sometimes) which is maybe why it is talked about a bit more. Mindfulness as taught in the satipatthana sutta is of body, feeling (not emotion), mind and mental qualities, and doesn't include emotion.


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