Who holds the highest throne?

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Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Harold » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:57 am

I was just wonder if anyone knows who holds the highest throne seat within the various sects of Tibetan Buddhism?

When His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama was the head of Tibet I know he held the highest seat.

His Holiness Sakya Trizin held the second highest seat.

Now that H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama is no longer the head of Tibet does he hold the highest seat or would H.H. Sakya Trizin now hold it?

This is purely and academic question not a battle between these two sects.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby lobster » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:03 am

I was just wonder if anyone knows who holds the highest throne seat within the various sects of Tibetan Buddhism?


The Buddha.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby ngodrup » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:50 am

I'm sure if you ask the Sakya Trizin, he will say it is HH the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama's clout is not dependent on his political position, rather
as Chenrezig in person the Spiritual Leader of *all* Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhists.
He is the teacher of the teachers-- a scholar's scholar and yogi's yogi.
Quite a few Geshes, Khenpos and Lamas of all schools, Bon included have the view
that HHDL is their Guru, but not their king. Ordinary, Tibetans, however
don't make the distinction . He may not be "head of state" anymore but
he's still their leader.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:32 am

Yes most Tibetans would agree that it is HH Dalai Lama, as he represents the Tibetan people. You will find that Tibetans of all lineages will be very quick to say this, though with Westerners, they might be less inclined to agree. This is in many cases because for non-Tibetans, what the Dalai Lama represents as the figurehead of Tibet is not something they identify with so much. Still, many Buddhists from all the lineages who have been around 10 years or longer have taken empowerments and teachings from His Holiness, so they see him as an important source of inspiration, if not the main one.

Traditionally the "pyramid" of the stature of the various lamas went something like this, according to the political structure: Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, Ganden Tripa. Though of course for Karma Kagyus this position of the Karmapa would be supreme in importance, as their lineage really is built around the incarnations of the Karmapa. Most serious Karma Kagyu practitioners practice a Guru Yoga associated with one of the Karmapas (Karma Pakshi, 16th Karmapa etc) and recite "Karmapa Khyenno" as the Guru Yoga component of their ngondro.

The Nyingma tradition is less institutional than the others so it is not until exile that there was an appointed "throne holder" for the entire tradition, though now that there is I am sure that position would figure somewhere in the pyramid as well.

The role of His Holiness the Dalai Lama has become even more crucial in the present day, when the Tibetans have been scattered across the earth, as he serves as a beacon of unity and hope for the Tibetan people. I pray that he lives long and continues his beneficial activities for beings.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Kunga Leshe » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm

Recently, I was wondering who will fill HHDL's shoes in this respect when he passes.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby smcj » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:13 am

Kunga Leshe wrote:Recently, I was wondering who will fill HHDL's shoes in this respect when he passes.

H.H. Karmapa (Orgyen Thinley brand) has been suggested, but not everybody is thrilled with the idea.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby passel » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:27 am

HHDL couldn't exactly be replaced because no one will have occupied quite the unique cultural moment and position he has held. I suspect we'll see a sort of diffusion of the Dalai Lama charisma, fortunately IMO no one will quite be able to claim they are his one real successor. A rising tide lifts all ships, and he's been a real phenomenon in his one human life. Buddhism as a whole, not just Tibetan Buddhism even, and frankly world spirituality more generally, will be able to claim him as an ancestor in the coming centuries. Of course they will always disagree on just what he has meant, but that's how traditions move forward.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:19 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
Traditionally the "pyramid" of the stature of the various lamas went something like this, according to the political structure: Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, Ganden Tripa.



Nope, HHDL, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, etc. There is a text about this by Khyentse Wangpo.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Alfredo » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:40 am

Thus spake Wikipedia:

Ikh Huree, as Ulaanbaatar was then known, was the seat of the preeminent living Buddha of Mongolia (the Jebtsundamba Khutuktu, also known as the Bogdo Gegen and later as Bogd Khan), who ranked third in the ecclesiastical hierarchy, after the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Mongolia

And incidentally,

A 9th Jebtsundamba Khutughtu was installed by the Dalai Lama, as the head of the Jonang lineage. He was born as Jampal Namdol Chökyi Gyaltsen in 1932. He died in early 2012. Despite the Chinese government's claim to have inherited the authority and ultimate decision right for the choice of successor of all high lamas in Mongolia and Tibet, the 9th Jebstundamba has passed will to be reincarnated within the independent Mongolia and the selection will be confirmed by the Dalai Lama. This puts China in a dilemma of endangering their foreign affairs with Mongolia for the choice of the next Lama or to forfeit this right that they claim to have control of religious affair, ultimately giving up their authority over the choice of the next dalai lama and putting their current choice of panchen lama in question.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebtsundamba_Khutuktu
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Greg » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:44 am

The question of "whose throne is the highest" is inherently political and doesn't really have any meaning outside the context of theocratic government.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby smcj » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:25 am

Who's throne is the highest? They guy in the penthouse. :toilet:
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:07 pm

Alfredo wrote:Thus spake Wikipedia:



This applies only in Gelug.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Sherab » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:39 am

Harold wrote:I was just wonder if anyone knows who holds the highest throne seat within the various sects of Tibetan Buddhism?

When His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama was the head of Tibet I know he held the highest seat.

His Holiness Sakya Trizin held the second highest seat.

Now that H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama is no longer the head of Tibet does he hold the highest seat or would H.H. Sakya Trizin now hold it?

This is purely and academic question not a battle between these two sects.

Highest in what sense? Spiritual attainment or politcal office?
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:14 pm

Depends on who you ask....
Everyone thinks their teachers are the highest... So the question itself is very arbitrary.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby disjointed » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:39 am

I think H.H. Karmapa would make a good successor.

H.H. Sakya Trizen, I have never met, but I get the feeling that he is interested in teaching until he dies but is not set on preserving his family's position in the Vajrayana transmission. Who knows how the next H.H. Sakya Trizen feels about this though.

These are just my impression of the situation. HH Karmapa could become a maniac and HHST could become obsessed with family prestige or something.

People sometimes think of the system of authority in lineages as strict rules. A quick look at the lineage holder lines of various tantras can dispel that idea though. Lineage holders don't just go by the political currents to choose their successor. As political influences become weaker and weaker, who knows what will happen to the lineage lines.
If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,
you are a sock puppet.
Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby narraboth » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
Traditionally the "pyramid" of the stature of the various lamas went something like this, according to the political structure: Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, Ganden Tripa.



Nope, HHDL, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, etc. There is a text about this by Khyentse Wangpo.


Fifth DL lama gave a formal rule about how the seats should be arranged (can be found in his biography), the second one is Sakya Gonma yes, and many other lama... for nyingma part it's a bit tricky because at that time Dordrak Rindzin has the prior seat whilst now we have Mingling Trizin. Dordrak Rindzin is still very much respected now.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Alfredo » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am

Some Russian literature from a century ago claims the Panchen Lama to be higher in status; or alternatively, for the Dalai Lama to be supreme in the temporal sphere, and the Panchen in the spiritual. (This in the context of Anglo-Russian rivalry in which the Dalai Lama was viewed as leaning towards Britain, while the Panchen was considered pro-Chinese--not that either of them had much of a choice.)
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby Benten » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:05 am

Count the pillows.
Guru Rinpoche had 9.
I think Ive seen the Dali Lama with 3.
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Re: Who holds the highest throne?

Postby montana » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:19 am

Probably the tallest person can hold a throne the highest.
I'm about 6'7", do I win?
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