Mahamudra and Dzogchen: Are they based on Sutra or Tantra?

[heart]

There is Mahamudra, according to Gampopa, that is both based on sutra and tantra. Dzogchen is all based on tantras. Cool it boys.

/magnus

[JohnRammy]

There is Mahamudra, according to Gampopa, that is both based on sutra and tantra. Dzogchen is all based on tantras. Cool it boys.

/magnus

Which is why I specifically mentioned I am talking about pre-Gampopa Mahamudra.

In fact we were both talking about the origin of Mahamudra, which would be before Gampopa anyway.

[Jinzang]

Indian mahamudra is largely based on the texts of Saraha. Since Saraha is famously critical of tantric practices, it would be difficult to call mahamudra solely a tantric practice. However, the view of mahamudra is compatible with tantra, and the Hevajra tantra is often cited in support. The same is true of third turning/tathagatagarbha teachings which are compaptible with both tantra and mahamudra and the three are taught as the definitive view in the Kagyu tradition.

[JohnRammy]

First off we are not talking about tantric features per se, but rather the tantric class of literature vs the sutra class of literature.

Secondly, I think you misunderstand tantric as equaling karmamudra, when there are many other defining features of Buddhist tantra including the inseperable clarity and emptiness of the mind.

That being said, I will indulge in your game.

The Mahamudra of Saraha calls for direct introduction by a guru explicitly. This is tantric.

Saraha passed on Cakrasamvara especially

Saraha also has less well known writings, all commentaries on tantras. tantric deity sadhanas etc.

[deepbluehum]

A key feature of the tantras is the nature of the mind i.e. the inseparability of clarity and emptiness.

Mahamudra is based on this.

Come on bro, even introductory books by the Dalai Lama mention this.

"According to Tantra, the ultimate nature of mind is essentially pure......"

Again, I suggest reading "Center of the Sunlit Sky" by Karl B. Or read the root tantras themselves.

End of Thread.

I think it's great you are studying dharma books. I read it before. It's fine. I prefer HH Drikung Chetsang. Consider:

"Monks! The mind is luminous..." Pabhassara Sutta

Clarity-emptiness sounds like some original big tantra deal, but the tantras are based on the sutras. If you have transmission from any qualified lama you will learn Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana. All the wheels are interconnected.

Gampopa's Mahamudra is not his invention. It comes from Saraha and Metripa. You learn this if you have a lama qualified to transmit Co-Emergent Mahamudra.

[JohnRammy]

Mahamudra is based on a class of literature called tantras, not sutras.

What are the tantras themselves based on?

You yourself hinted that the tantras are based on Madhyamaka on page 1. Remember Metripa?

[deepbluehum]

The Mahamudra of Saraha calls for direct introduction by a guru explicitly. This is tantric.

Unless of course if you are Chan lineage holder, and then it's sutric.

These discrete lines you are seeing are just mirages.

[JohnRammy]

The Mahamudra of Saraha calls for direct introduction by a guru explicitly. This is tantric.

Unless of course if you are Chan lineage holder, and then it's sutric.

These discrete lines you are seeing are just mirages.

Yeah and Saraha's Vajrayogini sadhana and Cakrasamvara are sutric too.

The mirages are all on your end.

[Karma Dorje]

Indian mahamudra is largely based on the texts of Saraha. Since Saraha is famously critical of tantric practices, it would be difficult to call mahamudra solely a tantric practice. However, the view of mahamudra is compatible with tantra, and the Hevajra tantra is often cited in support. The same is true of third turning/tathagatagarbha teachings which are compaptible with both tantra and mahamudra and the three are taught as the definitive view in the Kagyu tradition.

Can you please point to where Saraha criticizes tantra?

[JohnRammy]

Indian mahamudra is largely based on the texts of Saraha. Since Saraha is famously critical of tantric practices, it would be difficult to call mahamudra solely a tantric practice. However, the view of mahamudra is compatible with tantra, and the Hevajra tantra is often cited in support. The same is true of third turning/tathagatagarbha teachings which are compaptible with both tantra and mahamudra and the three are taught as the definitive view in the Kagyu tradition.

Can you please point to where Saraha criticizes tantra?

He doesn't. Saraha is a tantric.

[Karma Dorje]

Clarity-emptiness sounds like some original big tantra deal, but the tantras are based on the sutras. If you have transmission from any qualified lama you will learn Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana. All the wheels are interconnected.

Are you suggesting that the Mahayana sutras preceded the tantras?

[deepbluehum]

Mahamudra is based on a class of literature called tantras, not sutras.

What are the tantras themselves based on?

You yourself hinted that the tantras are based on Madhyamaka on page 1. Remember Maitripa?

No, Mahamudra is not based on tantra. The tantras teach the four mudras, and Mahamudra is the fourth. The tantras are based on the view of all three wheels, particularly the Third Turning (Tathagatagarbha Sutras). What you are referring to as "Mahamudra," is a teaching divided into three, Sutra, Tantra and Essence/Co-Emergent Mahamudra. Sutra Mahamudra is particularly based on the Lankavatara Sutra. Tantra Mahamudra is based on the yoga of two stages, as in Hevajra, Chakrasamvara, Kalachakra, etc. Co-Emergent Mahamudra is a special lineage between sutra and tantra that emphasizes the fourth initiation; it comes from Saraha and Metripa.

[deepbluehum]

Clarity-emptiness sounds like some original big tantra deal, but the tantras are based on the sutras. If you have transmission from any qualified lama you will learn Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana. All the wheels are interconnected.

Are you suggesting that the Mahayana sutras preceded the tantras?

Yeah most are. But what the important thing to understand is that tantras are like condensed version of sutra. HH Drikung Chetsang explained that Hinayana is like grass. Mahayana is like the cow eating the grass giving milk. And the Vajrayana is like cream from the milk.

[JohnRammy]

No, Mahamudra is not based on tantra.

You are now saying Mahamudra is not even based on tantra?

This is a more radical position than you had on page one. And contradicts the next sentence you say.

[JohnRammy]

I can agree that the tantras are based on sutric Madhyamaka

[JohnRammy]

Mahamudra is based on a class of literature called tantras, not sutras.

What are the tantras themselves based on?

You yourself hinted that the tantras are based on Madhyamaka on page 1. Remember Maitripa?

No, Mahamudra is not based on tantra. The tantras teach the four mudras, and Mahamudra is the fourth. The tantras are based on the view of all three wheels, particularly the Third Turning (Tathagatagarbha Sutras). What you are referring to as "Mahamudra," is a teaching divided into three, Sutra, Tantra and Essence/Co-Emergent Mahamudra. Sutra Mahamudra is particularly based on the Lankavatara Sutra. Tantra Mahamudra is based on the yoga of two stages, as in Hevajra, Chakrasamvara, Kalachakra, etc. Co-Emergent Mahamudra is a special lineage between sutra and tantra that emphasizes the fourth initiation; it comes from Saraha and Metripa.

This is a Gampopa / Kagyu schema. There is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra.

[deepbluehum]

The Mahamudra of Saraha calls for direct introduction by a guru explicitly. This is tantric.

Unless of course if you are Chan lineage holder, and then it's sutric.

These discrete lines you are seeing are just mirages.

Yeah and Saraha's Vajrayogini sadhana and Cakrasamvara are sutric too.

The mirages are all on your end.

Don't take is personally. I'm only sharing what are the core of the Kagyupa teachings. It is a way of seeing the big picture. Of course Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara are represent the union of wisdom and compassion, key sutric themes. What the tantras excel at is symbolic teaching versus prose teaching, e.g., Vajrayogini's crown represents overcoming five poisons. This is really what makes it profound on a practical level. Words like clarity and emptiness don't meaning anything until you have recognize the nature of the bindus in the completion stage. Methods of introduction in the Co-Emergent Mahamudra are taken from many sources, not just tantras. If you read Tilopa's Ganga Mahamudra, every example comes from a sutra. In Dzogchen, the example of the nature of mind being like a mirror also comes from a sutra. So discrete lines are only there for pedagogic purposes. If you want to discuss what any given term really means, it all boils down to nonself.

[deepbluehum]

Mahamudra is based on a class of literature called tantras, not sutras.

What are the tantras themselves based on?

You yourself hinted that the tantras are based on Madhyamaka on page 1. Remember Maitripa?

No, Mahamudra is not based on tantra. The tantras teach the four mudras, and Mahamudra is the fourth. The tantras are based on the view of all three wheels, particularly the Third Turning (Tathagatagarbha Sutras). What you are referring to as "Mahamudra," is a teaching divided into three, Sutra, Tantra and Essence/Co-Emergent Mahamudra. Sutra Mahamudra is particularly based on the Lankavatara Sutra. Tantra Mahamudra is based on the yoga of two stages, as in Hevajra, Chakrasamvara, Kalachakra, etc. Co-Emergent Mahamudra is a special lineage between sutra and tantra that emphasizes the fourth initiation; it comes from Saraha and Metripa.

This is a Gampopa / Kagyu schema. There is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra.

Now you are disparaging Kagyupa. I don't recommend you adhere to this way of arguing.

[JohnRammy]

I was disparaging Kagyu from page 1




No but seriously, Kayu classification and Gampopa definitely confuses the issue, as I've been hinting at from page 1.

[deepbluehum]

No, Mahamudra is not based on tantra.

You are now saying Mahamudra is not even based on tantra?

This is a more radical position than you had on page one. And contradicts the next sentence you say.

I'm saying tantras teach four mudras, and Mahamudra is the fourth. So Mahamudra is not based on tantra, the tantras teach mahamudra. Chakrasamvara, etc., arrive at mahamudra through yoga of two stages, samayamudra, jnanamudra, then dharmamudra/karmamudra and mahamudra. You are positing a Mahamudra based on tantras, other than tantras somehow I suppose. If that is the case, then what you are calling "Mahamudra" is known as Co-Emergent Mahamudra or Essence Mahamudra, and independent mahamudra as base, path and fruit. It is a lineage of oral instructions from the experience lineage and it is based on sutras and tantras, not just tantras.