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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:10 pm 
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http://www.integralyoga-auroville.com/I ... rldWar.php

What do you think?

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:32 pm 
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The human acquisitions of intelligence, individual liberty and social fraternity, together with the virtues of the soul, were no longer of importance. They had to be replaced by the properties of power, physical strength, harshness, insensitivity, and other attitudes which would favour the global domination of the (white) Aryans.

:shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 am 
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I think it about as likely that he was guided by Elvis' grandmother.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:45 am 
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I would not dismiss the basic premise or Sri Aurobindo's perception of having done spiritual battle. He is not the only person to make this observation about the Evil Austrian - Pope Pius was also reported to have attempted exorcism on a distance on Hitler more than once. There are reports that other groups attempted this sort of thing as well.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:19 am 
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Why look for paranormal reasons and not just admit that he was a power-hungry, psychopathic, egotistical human being that happened to stumble across the circumstances which allowed him to rise to power? He was/is not the only power hunger dictator to sweep people into mass destruction. During the same period there was Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Metaxas in Greece, Salazar in Portugal, Emperor Hirohito in Japan, etc...

It would be nice if we could excuse Hitlers actions as the outcome of possession by a ethereal being, then we would not have to look into ourselves and see the Hitler that each and every one of us has hidden inside. Hitler was a human being just like you and me, there was nothing supernatural or paranormal about him. He, like us, was driven by ignorance, hatred, jealousy, greed, envy, etc... He, like we will, got old, sick, died and was reborn.

The Situationists (during the 1968 uprising in Paris) said: "Kill the cop that lives inside your head", lets change it a little and say: "Kill the dictator that lives inside our head". Mara and his demons are just our own mind. Hitler was guided by his own mind. Just like you and me.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:25 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Why look for paranormal reasons and not just admit that he was a power-hungry, psychopathic, egotistical human being that happened to stumble across the circumstances which allowed him to rise to power? He was/is not the only power hunger dictator to sweep people into mass destruction. During the same period there was Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Metaxas in Greece, Salazar in Portugal, Emperor Hirohito in Japan, etc...

It would be nice if we could excuse Hitlers actions as the outcome of possession by a ethereal being, then we would not have to look into ourselves and see the Hitler that each and every one of us has hidden inside. Hitler was a human being just like you and me, there was nothing supernatural or paranormal about him. He, like us, was driven by ignorance, hatred, jealousy, greed, envy, etc... He, like we will, got old, sick, died and was reborn.

The Situationists (during the 1968 uprising in Paris) said: "Kill the cop that lives inside your head", lets change it a little and say: "Kill the dictator that lives inside our head". Mara and his demons are just our own mind. Hitler was guided by his own mind. Just like you and me.
:namaste:


Just to be fair,Hirohito couldn't do anything,his military leaders held all the power.
Next,I don't think they were trying to excuse Hitler's actions,they just underestimated how much a man can manipulate the crowd.Well,manipulate isn't the right word.Hitler believed in what he said,though I don't think he really utilized his rhetoric to "manipulate."
Personally,if it wasn't for the Holocaust,I'd worship Hitler like a god.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Just to be fair,Hirohito couldn't do anything,his military leaders held all the power.
Yeah, right! So you believe that Hirohito was not a power hungry oaf who accepted all the power, money and glory his military leaders provided him in return for keeping his mouth shut and not telling the Japanese people to not follow their expansionist policy. Hirohito did not benefit from Japans invasion of Manchuria? He did not gain from military control over the entire Pacific region: Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia even?
Quote:
Well,manipulate isn't the right word.Hitler believed in what he said,though I don't think he really utilized his rhetoric to "manipulate."
Sure, everything he did was for the good of the German people right? He and his croneys, were not hell bent on power, money, etc... They were just boy scouts that took their badges too seriously... :crazy:
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Personally,if it wasn't for the Holocaust,I'd worship Hitler like a god.
Just the Holocaust? What about the millions of deaths of non-Jewish citizens in the Ukraine, Greece, Egypt, France, Germany, Russia, Rumania, etc...? What about the undeomocratic terrorisation and pogroms aginst Communists, Socialists, Trade Unionists, against anybody that disagreed with him and stood between him and absolute power? Not to downplay the extent of the Holocaust against the Jewish people but let us not forget the gypsies, homosexuals, the physically and intellctually handicaped, etc...

Sorry to be the one to interrupt your sweet Nazi dream, but let's get serious here for a second, a god? You must be kidding, right? :shrug:
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:09 pm 
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In the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha most excellent

I take refuge until enlightenment is reached.

By the merit of generosity and other good deeds

May I attain Buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings.

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:14 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Why look for paranormal reasons and not just admit that he was a power-hungry, psychopathic, egotistical human being that happened to stumble across the circumstances which allowed him to rise to power? He was/is not the only power hunger dictator to sweep people into mass destruction. During the same period there was Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Metaxas in Greece, Salazar in Portugal, Emperor Hirohito in Japan, etc...


Good point. Genocide/mass homicide was in the air.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:45 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Yeah, right! So you believe that Hirohito was not a power hungry oaf who accepted all the power, money and glory his military leaders provided him in return for keeping his mouth shut and not telling the Japanese people to not follow their expansionist policy. Hirohito did not benefit from Japans invasion of Manchuria? He did not gain from military control over the entire Pacific region: Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia even?

You misunderstand me,I'm not claiming Hirohito didn't benefit off of it all or that he was innocent.I'm just saying that he couldn't do jack **** without his general's approval.
gregkavarnos wrote:
Sure, everything he did was for the good of the German people right? He and his croneys, were not hell bent on power, money, etc... They were just boy scouts that took their badges too seriously... :crazy:

Again,you misunderstand me.I'm not saying that Hitler and his fan club were "boy scouts."I'm saying that Hitler believed in what he said.You're not just going to wake up one morning and say "Hm,I'm going to be a total bastard and kill nine million people."Hitler fully believed they were inferiors and that they should be exterminated.
gregkavarnos wrote:
Just the Holocaust? What about the millions of deaths of non-Jewish citizens in the Ukraine, Greece, Egypt, France, Germany, Russia, Rumania, etc...? What about the undeomocratic terrorisation and pogroms aginst Communists, Socialists, Trade Unionists, against anybody that disagreed with him and stood between him and absolute power? Not to downplay the extent of the Holocaust against the Jewish people but let us not forget the gypsies, homosexuals, the physically and intellctually handicaped, etc...

Sorry to be the one to interrupt your sweet Nazi dream, but let's get serious here for a second, a god? You must be kidding, right? :shrug:
:namaste:


Okay,first of all,I'm glad you mentioned the gays,gypsies,and others that were put in death camps,no sarcasm.Nowadays,people forget about them(for example these two detestable people,Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams writing a book called the Pink Swastika.Apparently,the Nazi's were gays and all gay people are "dangerous" :quoteunquote: .)
What about men like Oliver Cromwell,who had his men persecute the Irish Catholics and pretty much completely destroy Ireland's stability?He gets a statue outside of the Palace of Westminster.I'm not excusing Hitler's crime,but everyone has trampled over and committed genocide against others.
Your last remark "sweet Nazi dream" is just pathetic to say the least.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Of course Hitler believed what he said, so what?

All the worst monsters of history were true believers in one ideal or another, ideology unfettered by critical thought is always much more potent than simple Machiavellian self interest.

All we have to do is look around to see that true, unshaken, unexamined beliefs in exclusionary ideologies are one of the most dangerous weapons human beings have ever produced,...so why would it somehow temper our view of Hitler that he "meant what he said"? Is "altrusitic evil" (if we can call it that) somehow better than evil done out of calculation of self interest? To me it actually seems worse!

I agree about selective standards though, look at the evils done today in the name of 'spreading democracy", arguably they are not on the level of Nazi atrocity, but they sure aren't minor either. Similar to other such undertakings, backing them up is a nonsense ideology based on completely false perceptions of the world and it's workings - which plenty of leaders believe with all their hearts, i'm sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:18 pm 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
You misunderstand me,I'm not claiming Hirohito didn't benefit off of it all or that he was innocent.I'm just saying that he couldn't do jack **** without his general's approval.
So if Hirohito told his generals: "Please stop giving me untold wealth and power and put an end to this conflict immediately!" the Japanese peole would have backed the generals over their divine emperor?
Quote:
Again,you misunderstand me.I'm not saying that Hitler and his fan club were "boy scouts."I'm saying that Hitler believed in what he said.You're not just going to wake up one morning and say "Hm,I'm going to be a total bastard and kill nine million people."Hitler fully believed they were inferiors and that they should be exterminated.
So what? I may believe that I should be a billionaire and that everybody that stands in my way should be crushed, does that mean I am not going to willingly manipulate people to realise my belief? No, obviously. So why does this mean that Hitler was not manipulating people to realise his psychotic nightmare?
Quote:
What about men like Oliver Cromwell,who had his men persecute the Irish Catholics and pretty much completely destroy Ireland's stability?He gets a statue outside of the Palace of Westminster.I'm not excusing Hitler's crime,but everyone has trampled over and committed genocide against others.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Quote:
Your last remark "sweet Nazi dream" is just pathetic to say the least.
Dude, you are the one that could consider Hitler a god if you overlooked the Holocaust, and I am pathetic? I was just making the point that the Holocaust was only one aspect of Hitlers muderous reign. Over 60,000,000 people died (38,000,000 were civilians) as a consequence of WWII (granted that Hitler was not the only one responsible for this figure) of which 4.9-6 million were Jews. For me it would take slightly more than ignoring 10% of the total victims to make Hitler a god.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:20 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:
You misunderstand me,I'm not claiming Hirohito didn't benefit off of it all or that he was innocent.I'm just saying that he couldn't do jack **** without his general's approval.
So if Hirohito told his generals: "Please stop giving me untold wealth and power and put an end to this conflict immediately!" the Japanese peole would have backed the generals over their divine emperor?
Both of you are right. The Americans agreed to downplay the Emperor's part in the war and the various war crimes so he could remain in power, so the Japanese would accept surrender.

On the other hand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:59 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
So if Hirohito told his generals: "Please stop giving me untold wealth and power and put an end to this conflict immediately!" the Japanese peole would have backed the generals over their divine emperor?

No,but look at the history of Japan.The Emperor could be displaced by the Shogun if he so wished.The Shogun was the one who held the power,the Emperor didn't.
gregkavarnos wrote:
So what? I may believe that I should be a billionaire and that everybody that stands in my way should be crushed, does that mean I am not going to willingly manipulate people to realise my belief? No, obviously. So why does this mean that Hitler was not manipulating people to realise his psychotic nightmare?

I personally don't believe Hitler was "manipulating" people.Blast me all you want.
gregkavarnos wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right.

No,but I'm saying that Cromwell should be treated in the same hatred and disgust that Hitler is treated.Until that happens,I don't see any reason I should hate and despise Hitler.
gregkavarnos wrote:
Dude, you are the one that could consider Hitler a god if you overlooked the Holocaust, and I am pathetic? I was just making the point that the Holocaust was only one aspect of Hitlers muderous reign. Over 60,000,000 people died (38,000,000 were civilians) as a consequence of WWII (granted that Hitler was not the only one responsible for this figure) of which 4.9-6 million were Jews. For me it would take slightly more than ignoring 10% of the total victims to make Hitler a god.
:namaste:

I'm not the one going on a rant.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
I personally don't believe Hitler was "manipulating" people.Blast me all you want.
I don't need to blast you, the historical record is quite clear on the matter. You can even check out the testimonies of the accused at the Nuremberg trials.
Quote:
No,but I'm saying that Cromwell should be treated in the same hatred and disgust that Hitler is treated.Until that happens,I don't see any reason I should hate and despise Hitler.
I didn't say you should hate and despise him, but deifying a psychopathic architect of mass murder on the largest scale ever is going a little too far. Actually it puts you firmly in the Nazi camp.
Quote:
I'm not the one going on a rant.
You call disagreeing with you a rant? And if I agreed with you would it still be a rant?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:31 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:
I personally don't believe Hitler was "manipulating" people.Blast me all you want.
I don't need to blast you, the historical record is quite clear on the matter. You can even check out the testimonies of the accused at the Nuremberg trials.
Quote:
No,but I'm saying that Cromwell should be treated in the same hatred and disgust that Hitler is treated.Until that happens,I don't see any reason I should hate and despise Hitler.
I didn't say you should hate and despise him, but deifying a psychopathic architect of mass murder on the largest scale ever is going a little too far. Actually it puts you firmly in the Nazi camp.
Quote:
I'm not the one going on a rant.
You call disagreeing with you a rant? And if I agreed with you would it still be a rant?
:namaste:


No,but your first reply was pretty much a rant.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:41 am 
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As long as we ourselves are convinced of things being solid, or to be merely a temporary phenomenon and phenomena is all there is, then one is part of ones' own phenomenal created muppetshow. This state is very easy influenced. Me-muppet against other muppets. In 'what space' this show plays, isn't seen. (be the sky, not a cloud)
When we are a victim of own destructive illusions then from this dreamlike nature same action come out.

In some way, examples of destruction can be a teaching to apply analysis in mind. Then mind guided by awaken nature is what we all need.

:anjali:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:25 am 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
No,but your first reply was pretty much a rant.
Gulity as charged! :emb:

Sorry, but here in Greece, in the mainstream political field, there is currently an upsurge in support for Nazi/Fascist policies and parties. And I am not using the term Nazi in a peurile: "every conservative is a Nazi" sense, we are talking about genuine jackboot wearing, immigrant beating and killing, homophobic, misogynist, seig heiling, unashamed Nazis. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4840

So I tend to be a little sensitive about the matter and not so forgiving to those that support the politic forms of National Socialism and Corporatism. It is extremely dangerous to give even a modicum of credence to these ideas, let alone consider those that developed and realised these ideas as gods.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:16 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:
No,but your first reply was pretty much a rant.
Gulity as charged! :emb:

Sorry, but here in Greece, in the mainstream political field, there is currently an upsurge in support for Nazi/Fascist policies and parties. And I am not using the term Nazi in a peurile: "every conservative is a Nazi" sense, we are talking about genuine jackboot wearing, immigrant beating and killing, homophobic, misogynist, seig heiling, unashamed Nazis. http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4840

So I tend to be a little sensitive about the matter and not so forgiving to those that support the politic forms of National Socialism and Corporatism. It is extremely dangerous to give even a modicum of credence to these ideas, let alone consider those that developed and realised these ideas as gods.
:namaste:


Worship as a god was a figure of speech.I extremely disagree with Hitler's white supremacy or the belief that all races should be segregated.I agree that several people were killed by Hitler's megalomaniac war.It's not what he did,but how he did them that I dislike(I agree with him reclaiming Germany's lost lands and his war.But the way he did it,by massacring a bunch of people,was pure evil.)
I'd like to add that I do not understand why you started raging about Hirohito.I didn't say I liked the guy or even remotely admired him.Just that the generals(like the Shogun)were more powerful then Hirohito.If he even moved a step against them,he would be fried on the spot.Read a bit about Japan's history.

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:38 am 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
I'd like to add that I do not understand why you started raging about Hirohito.I didn't say I liked the guy or even remotely admired him.Just that the generals(like the Shogun)were more powerful then Hirohito.


Just a quick point - the Shogunate was abolished in 1867.

Quote:
If he even moved a step against them,he would be fried on the spot.Read a bit about Japan's history.


Not fired, perhaps murdered, we won't know for sure. Of course the day before he was to announce the end of the war, a group of junior officers staged a coup, so you may have a point.

However it is clear that Emperor Hirohito was not opposed to the war and did little if anything to stop or mitigate the suffering that Japan imposed on all of East Asia.

Kirt

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