Lesson from the Sun

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:07 pm

Repeating the same statement over and over again without providing evidence of its veracity, without providing canonical references to support it, without a logical explanation of your view, is not considered a correct form of debate or discussion. Please refrain from doing so. If you continue to merely repeat your view without providing evidence, references or outlining your logic I will consider it trolling and will issue a formal warning and/or suspension. It is time for you to get smart.

The Buddha says:
SN 36.2
Sukha Sutta: Happiness
translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera
© 1995–2012
"There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings."

Be it a pleasant feeling, be it a painful feeling, be it neutral,
one's own or others', feelings of all kinds[1] —
he knows them all as ill, deceitful, evanescent.
Seeing how they impinge again, again, and disappear,[2]
he wins detachment from the feelings, passion-free.

Notes
1. On "feelings of all kinds," see SN 36.22
2. Phussa phussa vayam disva, The Comy. explains differently, paraphrasing these words by ñanena phusitva phusitva, "repeatedly experiencing (them) by way of the knowledge (of rise and fall)." These verses occur also in Sutta Nipata, v. 739, with one additional line.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

Again a clear example that the goal in Buddhism is not happiness or pleasure, but equanimity.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:16 pm

xtracorrupt wrote:No, wanting happiness is good and wanting suffering is bad.
Nobody has said that they want suffering. Suffering is not an optional extra in samsara, but we have already explained this.
Needing happiness is not suffering becaues it is wanting whats good.
Yes it is suffering, because it is grasping for something (a state) that has no real solid, substantial, permanent existence.
Wanting happiness is good will, Desiring good will is exactly what an unawakened being should want. Awakened beings have achieved good will, they`ve realized all that mattters is happiness.
Wanting anything, attachment to any state, is not good will. It is grasping, longing, craving, desiring, etc...
Dhp XXIV PTS: Dhp 334-359
Tanhavagga: Craving
translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita
© 1996–2012

334. The craving of one given to heedless living grows like a creeper. Like the monkey seeking fruits in the forest, he leaps from life to life (tasting the fruit of his kamma).

335. Whoever is overcome by this wretched and sticky craving, his sorrows grow like grass after the rains.

336. But whoever overcomes this wretched craving, so difficult to overcome, from him sorrows fall away like water from a lotus leaf.

337. This I say to you: Good luck to all assembled here! Dig up the root of craving, like one in search of the fragrant root of the birana grass. Let not Mara crush you again and again, as a flood crushes a reed.

338. Just as a tree, though cut down, sprouts up again if its roots remain uncut and firm, even so, until the craving that lies dormant is rooted out, suffering springs up again and again.

339. The misguided man in whom the thirty-six currents of craving strongly rush toward pleasurable objects, is swept away by the flood of his passionate thoughts.

340. Everywhere these currents flow, and the creeper (of craving) sprouts and grows. Seeing that the creeper has sprung up, cut off its root with wisdom.

341. Flowing in (from all objects) and watered by craving, feelings of pleasure arise in beings. Bent on pleasures and seeking enjoyment, these men fall prey to birth and decay.

342. Beset by craving, people run about like an entrapped hare. Held fast by mental fetters, they come to suffering again and again for a long time.

343. Beset by craving, people run about like an entrapped hare. Therefore, one who yearns to be passion-free should destroy his own craving.

344. There is one who, turning away from desire (for household life) takes to the life of the forest (i.e., of a monk). But after being freed from the household, he runs back to it. Behold that man! Though freed, he runs back to that very bondage!

345-346. That is not a strong fetter, the wise say, which is made of iron, wood or hemp. But the infatuation and longing for jewels and ornaments, children and wives — that, they say, is a far stronger fetter, which pulls one downward and, though seemingly loose, is hard to remove. This, too, the wise cut off. Giving up sensual pleasure, and without any longing, they renounce the world.

347. Those who are lust-infatuated fall back into the swirling current (of samsara) like a spider on its self-spun web. This, too, the wise cut off. Without any longing, they abandon all suffering and renounce the world.

348. Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death.

349. For a person tormented by evil thoughts, who is passion-dominated and given to the pursuit of pleasure, his craving steadily grows. He makes the fetter strong, indeed.

350. He who delights in subduing evil thoughts, who meditates on the impurities and is ever mindful — it is he who will make an end of craving and rend asunder Mara's fetter.

351. He who has reached the goal, is fearless, free from craving, passionless, and has plucked out the thorns of existence — for him this is the last body.

352. He who is free from craving and attachment, is perfect in uncovering the true meaning of the Teaching, and knows the arrangement of the sacred texts in correct sequence — he, indeed, is the bearer of his final body. He is truly called the profoundly wise one, the great man.

353. A victor am I over all, all have I known. Yet unattached am I to all that is conquered and known. Abandoning all, I am freed through the destruction of craving. Having thus directly comprehended all by myself, whom shall I call my teacher?

354. The gift of Dhamma excels all gifts; the taste of the Dhamma excels all tastes; the delight in Dhamma excels all delights. The Craving-Freed vanquishes all suffering.

355. Riches ruin only the foolish, not those in quest of the Beyond. By craving for riches the witless man ruins himself as well as others.

356. Weeds are the bane of fields, lust is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of lust yields abundant fruit.

357. Weeds are the bane of fields, hatred is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of hatred yields abundant fruit.

358. Weeds are the bane of fields, delusion is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of delusion yields abundant fruit.

359. Weeds are the bane of fields, desire is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of desire yields abundant fruit.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html
If we needed happiness we would have everything we need because we wouldn`t need anything. How could we need something which we already have?
You can always want more of something that you already have.
How could we be disatisfied with no expectations?
Now you are onto something! Try and develop this one a bit more.
Hapiness is good desire, Suffering is bad desire. Its good to want happiness, because you can only be disatisfied if your ignorant
Desire for a state of being inevitably leads to suffering.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby viniketa » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:01 pm

xtracorrupt wrote:All that matters is happiness, you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything


To help clarify, you might find the Berzin Archive's series on happiness beneficial, beginning with: The Sources of Happiness According to Buddhism.

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:46 am

The Kalama Sutra AN 3.65 says, in part,

When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.


So it does not seem from this quote at least, that Buddha was in any way opposed to happiness. He might have something different to say about clinging to happiness, or fighting to attain it, but I don't think he was against it.
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:13 am

Part of the reason this discussion has gone on for so long is that xtracorrupt never actually defined what he meant by the term happiness.

From there on I assumed he meant the ephemeral happiness caused by phenomena or arising from causes and conditions. Since this is happiness that is based on impermanent conditions then it will ultimately give rise to viparinama dukkha (suffering of change). Happiness may arise as a by-product of "righteous" living, there is no denying that. It is not that one tries to avoid happiness. But making ephemeral happiness the goal of ones existence, claiming it is liberation, well the Buddhha 100% did not teach that.

Even the joy, rapture and bliss associated with the jhana/dhyana is temporary and not the ultimate goal of meditational practices. Sure, the Buddha does not say to avoid the feelings that arise, but even the joy and rapture born of meditative concentration can become an obstacle to liberation, if one clings to it. So, given that even meditational bliss and rapture can be an obstacle to liberation, it is needless to say that the happiness that arises from ephemeral positive circumstances and phenomena is NOT the goal of Buddhist practice. Quite obviously.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby catmoon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:06 am

I think I agree, but there is a danger that one might take certain teachings to mean the goal is the elimination of all happiness and sadness. Good philosophy for Vulcans, not so great for you and me.
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Re: Lesson from the Sun

Postby viniketa » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:49 am

If we put an end to these disturbing emotions and attitudes in our mental continuums, then we put an end to all our suffering. A person who works to do this is known as one who follows the Dharma.... Reaching the culmination or endpoint of the Dharma with the attainment of enlightenment brings only happiness, not only to us, but also to all others.

The Endpoint of Samsara Is Suffering, the Endpoint of Dharma Is Happiness


Thus, if "the culmination of Dharma" (so-called enlightenment) = happiness, then saying that one needs only happiness is the same as saying one needs only enlightenment.

However, to be clear, this would not seem to be the same "happiness" as "ephemeral happiness".

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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