Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

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Red Faced Buddha
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Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:21 pm

Just out of curiosity,is Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same?
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"

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Indrajala
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Indrajala » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:26 pm

No, Tibetan Buddhism includes many other aspects and practices than just tantra. :smile:
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Red Faced Buddha
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:07 pm

Huseng wrote:No, Tibetan Buddhism includes many other aspects and practices than just tantra. :smile:


Like what?
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"

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Indrajala
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Indrajala » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:09 pm

Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Huseng wrote:No, Tibetan Buddhism includes many other aspects and practices than just tantra. :smile:


Like what?


Madhyamaka philosophy, incense rolling, butter sculptures, Abhidharma, Vinaya and many other things.
tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |
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KeithBC
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby KeithBC » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:29 pm

Furthermore, there are tantric Buddhist sects that are not Tibetan.

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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Sherlock » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:32 pm

The main practices for the five schools are based on tantra. Dzogchen texts might set it as a path separate from tantra but I don't think Dzogchen has ever been taught without any tantra. However all schools have their own traditions of teaching sutras and sastras of Mahayana philosophy as well as shamatha and vipasyana.

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pueraeternus
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:38 pm

I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby Astus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:15 pm

pueraeternus wrote:I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.


The Bodhi Path of the Shamarpa is also mostly sutra teachings, i.e. Lojong.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby justsit » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:20 pm

pueraeternus wrote:I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.


May I ask where you get that impression?

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pueraeternus
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:34 pm

justsit wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.


May I ask where you get that impression?


From time to time I attend Nalandabodhi NY's events. It was from a chat with someone there once - I can't recall why we got to that subject, but I think it is related to the Nalandabodhi curriculum.

Did I get the wrong impression then? I didn't probe further, so I could have gotten it wrong altogether.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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pueraeternus
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:38 pm

Astus wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.


The Bodhi Path of the Shamarpa is also mostly sutra teachings, i.e. Lojong.


Ah - interesting. Thanks!
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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justsit
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby justsit » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:08 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
justsit wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I get the impression that in Nalandabodhi (Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's organization), they do cater for those who only practice in the sutra tradition. Which is interesting, since I also had the impression that all the Tibetan schools lead their students to tantra, with sutra only as preliminary training.


May I ask where you get that impression?


From time to time I attend Nalandabodhi NY's events. It was from a chat with someone there once - I can't recall why we got to that subject, but I think it is related to the Nalandabodhi curriculum.

Did I get the wrong impression then? I didn't probe further, so I could have gotten it wrong altogether.

Perhaps, depends on the context of your conversation.

Just to clarify a bit - the NB curriculum is divided into three sections for the three yanas. Courses/events open to the public are typically limited to the sutra level approach; vajrayana courses are reserved for DPR's students.
DPR holds both Nyingma and Kagyu lineages, and teaches at the highest levels; and as he sometimes quips, with a smile, "My first name is Dzogchen." :smile:

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pueraeternus
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Re: Are Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism the same thing?

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:22 pm

justsit wrote:Perhaps, depends on the context of your conversation.

Just to clarify a bit - the NB curriculum is divided into three sections for the three yanas. Courses/events open to the public are typically limited to the sutra level approach; vajrayana courses are reserved for DPR's students.
DPR holds both Nyingma and Kagyu lineages, and teaches at the highest levels; and as he sometimes quips, with a smile, "My first name is Dzogchen." :smile:


Noted - thanks for the clarification.

DPR is an amazing teacher. I have yet to meet him in person (he doesn't come to NYC very often), but I enjoyed his videos. I hope I can meet Khenpo someday, but it is unlikely since I heard due to his health and age he is probably not going to leave Nepal.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


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