Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby undefineable » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:05 pm

catmoon wrote:I suppose the message would be that Buddhists have serious doubts about fundamentalists.


Buddhists should definitely have serious doubts about fundamentalism.

As for any kind of God, though, I chose to disbelieve in him until my practice proves his nonexistence. Since I'm not a quantum physicist, like many here I've no way -short of winning the lottery, squandering it on school courses whose minutiae are of no interest to me, and finally bending my nearly-middle-aged brain in loops- of knowing whether or not the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle might necessitate -or atleast allow for- the existence of God[s]. {Note that this -clearly a pretty big 'gap' as far as 'God of the Gaps' is concerned- would put evolution itself under divine direction, thereby removing any notion of an ex-Biblical God 'deceiving' anyone.} Further, both Buddhism and science avoid the 'first cause' argument, which I'm happy to leave to one side until I'm ready to understand why and how time and reality needed no reason or cause to exist - besides needing no foundational support (if you accept sunyata and/or the absence of fundamental particles) for their existence in the meantime. Until then, I think it's natural to be perplexed as to why and how come this something-that-is-basically-nothing exists - rather than simply nothing at all. As to the Argument from Evil, how do we know authority figures -who were probably ignorant of such things in any case- didn't "sex up" a true situation in which there were was no hell but just graded purgatories, heavens, and/or worldly & heavenly rebirths, ostensibly for the good of their "flock"? Finally, if God -and an afterlife guaranteed by him- existed, then wouldn't directly informing people (of any of it) be the best way to dissuade them from actively living their lives both individually and collectively, i.e. the best way for him to effectively 'de-create' the crowning glory of his creation?

I hope there's plenty of beefy arguments on hand against all this :stirthepot:
Last edited by undefineable on Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby undefineable » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Dave The Seeker wrote:As to your 4th point, The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble 8 fold path are the basis for all lineages of Buddhism.
These have been passed down and there is no reason their accuracy has been or needed to be changed.


Same could be said about such and such religion.


The difference with the 4NT atleast is that they're easily verifiable claims about 'a priori' experience, rather factual claims about the outside world.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:48 am

undefineable wrote:The difference with the 4NT atleast is that they're easily verifiable claims about 'a priori' experience, rather factual claims about the outside world.


How can we be certain that this a priori experience isn't planted by God (or Satan)?
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Dave The Seeker » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:56 am

Alex123 wrote:
undefineable wrote:The difference with the 4NT atleast is that they're easily verifiable claims about 'a priori' experience, rather factual claims about the outside world.


How can we be certain that this a priori experience isn't planted by God (or Satan)?


And how can you be certain there's a god or satan?
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They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby undefineable » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:25 am

Alex123 wrote:
undefineable wrote:The difference with the 4NT atleast is that they're easily verifiable claims about 'a priori' experience, rather factual claims about the outside world.


How can we be certain that this a priori experience isn't planted by God (or Satan)?


In the sense of deception? Well if they appear to reflect reality on the level of mental functioning, then what's the difference between their being deceptive and their being real?

I also wonder if we might be better off asking all these sorts of questions of the relevant scientists - without expecting all the answers to be coherent. Science needs a dialogue with philosophy if it's to avoid being swallowed by the 'hubris' of certain scientists, perhaps :thinking: .
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby undefineable » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:26 am

Dave The Seeker wrote:And how can you be certain there's a god or satan?


Moreover, whatever happened to agnosticism? :toilet: :thinking:
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Dave The Seeker » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:29 am

undefineable wrote:
Dave The Seeker wrote:And how can you be certain there's a god or satan?


Moreover, whatever happened to agnosticism? :toilet: :thinking:


good point
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby ram peswani » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:34 am

Awareness is the God.
We all meet him everyday with a little effort.
Person who dies in his body awareness can either be reborn as
a human beint in better surroundings or can get free from human
rebirth.
So I hope to meet God when I die.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Seishin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:47 pm

ram peswani wrote:Awareness is the God.


Is awareness self aware?
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby ram peswani » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:43 am

[*]
Seishin wrote:
ram peswani wrote:Awareness is the God.


Is awareness self aware?



Self aware is part of Awareness.
Awareness directed outside guides to right decisions.
Self aware increases your awareness Or let us say it brings you nearer to God
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby alpha » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Seishin wrote:
ram peswani wrote:Awareness is the God.


Is awareness self aware?



When you look around you see all kind of things and you have all kinds of states and feelings.
All this taken together is the content of the mind.
The mind is aware of all that, always.
It is aware of its own content = self aware.
But that content is also itself .This is the moment when the totality of groundless conciousness becomes apparent and the three realms ,that of desire,of form and formless are none other than the wisdom,nature and essence of this totality.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Seishin » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:22 pm

ram peswani wrote:Self aware is part of Awareness.
Awareness directed outside guides to right decisions.
Self aware increases your awareness Or let us say it brings you nearer to God

All this sounds like Hinduism to me. Do you believe God is a person or a thing, or an enterty or lifeform?

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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby ram peswani » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:44 am

[*]
Seishin wrote:
ram peswani wrote:Self aware is part of Awareness.
Awareness directed outside guides to right decisions.
Self aware increases your awareness Or let us say it brings you nearer to God

All this sounds like Hinduism to me. Do you believe God is a person or a thing, or an enterty or lifeform?

Gassho,
Seishin.



Can we see the Awareness?
Has it any physical form?

So if Awareness is God, we cannot see it with our senses,and it has no physical form.
But we can see Awareness with our inner eyes.
Our inner eye has to go beyond physical and feeling senses.

Even if we are not in a state of seeing Awareness with our inner eye, Our effort to be aware
starts working on us.
It is very simple. Sit in a quiet place and try to be Aware every time.
You will find changes happening in you. Your physical body and mental attitudes will start changing.

When we reach a stage where we are able to see Awareness with our inner eye, mix it
with a desire. And Lo the desire gets fulfilled. And more bright the awareness is , faster
do the desires get fulfilled.

And then you know that this is how we define a GOD.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Seishin » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:55 am

In Buddhism, we don't see awareness, we become aware through meditative practice. Fulfilling your desires is also not a path in Buddhism. If you have read the four fold path, you would know this. This is why the above is not Buddhism but sounds more like Hinduism.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby ram peswani » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:14 am

Awareness increases with meditation



Desires are not right if one is following Hinayana/ Therwada path of Budddhism. In Mahayana one has to DESIRE for the benefit of all humanity.


Hinduism/ Buddhism are mere words. What I am writing about is the absolute TRUTH or Dhamma law.

Gassho,
Seishin.[/quote]
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Seishin » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:41 am

No according to Buddhism, and this is a Buddhist forum.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Sherlock » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:39 pm

catmoon wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
catmoon wrote:Counter-example please.

Famous or otherwise? Ancient or contemporary?

If you allow examples from history, there are tons. Bacon, Galileo, Newton, Pascal, Kepler, Descartes. If you want famous contemporaries, it gets more limited and I'd have to do some research to pull up good names. In my field, there's Donald Knuth (wrote The Art of Computer Programming) and Larry Wall (creator of Perl), that I can think of that are both Christians and actually talk about it publicly.

In my personal experience, I went to a Catholic high school. The arguably smartest kid in my graduating class was very devoutly Catholic. He had a few heated arguments with me and other atheists at school. He got a 1600 on the SAT, back when that was the highest possible school.


To fall within the context of the argument, we have to go with contemporaries, or at least people who lived post-Darwin. The believers in question are those who believe the earth was created in 4004 BC or not too long prior to that.

I put it to you that anyone who gets a 1600 SAT score, and has all that mental ability, yet STILL persists in giving priority to pet beliefs over reason is by definition not too bright, and is displaying highly questionable judgement.

BTW I did 3 years in a Catholic high school myself. Small world.


Since your criteria is young-earth creationism, it is really easy to provide examples of intelligent Christians who don't believe in young earth creationism. Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project, is a Christian -- he certainly believes in evolution although he thinks God directed it. Outside of Evangelical Fundamentalist churches, there are many Christians who are not young-earth creationists.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby Illuminaughty » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:47 pm

He seems to conflate religion in general with a specific belief in a creative designer who fabricated the universe. That's not the case though and for religions which don't embrace that theory to begin with the reality of evolution would really do nothing to debunk them.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby greentara » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:28 am

Maybe the very strident Richard Dawkins should sit down and have a chat with biblehusbands "For men, not girly men, but real men – men who, after a wonderful steak dinner, would enjoy sitting around the fire at the country club smoking long stogies and, drinking brandy and discussing the issues of the day."
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Re: Richard Dawkins: If I met god when I die

Postby catmoon » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:46 am

Sherlock wrote:
Since your criteria is young-earth creationism, it is really easy to provide examples of intelligent Christians who don't believe in young earth creationism. Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project, is a Christian -- he certainly believes in evolution although he thinks God directed it. Outside of Evangelical Fundamentalist churches, there are many Christians who are not young-earth creationists.


If you have a point, I don't see it. Are you sure you understand which positions are being held here and by whom?
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