Completion of the path of Tögal

[padma norbu]

Well I don't know about optimism but the simple reality is that we wouldn't even know how to wipe our own asses after taking a dump without someone teaching us first. Of course after someone shows us how to do it, it's totally up to us to wipe our asses clean or walk around with shit smeared on our underwear.

It's always good to make a point with foul language. Shows how strong a statement you are making. Pretty sure we would all figure out how to wipe our own ass. After all, we have built pyramids in various cultures all over the world.

[Pero]

Well I don't know about optimism but the simple reality is that we wouldn't even know how to wipe our own asses after taking a dump without someone teaching us first. Of course after someone shows us how to do it, it's totally up to us to wipe our asses clean or walk around with shit smeared on our underwear.

It's always good to make a point with foul language. Shows how strong a statement you are making. Pretty sure we would all figure out how to wipe our own ass. After all, we have built pyramids in various cultures all over the world.

You'd think that right? But I'm afraid it's true what I said. Some Indian king proved it unintentionally. Maybe I'll be able to find a link or something.

[padma norbu]

there's an indian king walking around with shitty drawers? i don't believe it.

[Pero]

there's an indian king walking around with shitty drawers? i don't believe it.

ROFL, no.

[padma norbu]

BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much. It's not necessarily arrogant. It seems correct, actually. What doesn't seem correct is dependence on a guru; that just does not come naturally to the western mind, which is probably why westerners love so much the statement by Buddha that we should not believe anything just because he said it or anyone else said it, but because it seems reasonable to us.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have. When I was young and open-minded, I was very tolerant. Now, I am not. I find it hard to hold my tongue if someone expresses interest in something that seems counterproductive or just an obvious bad choice (like a wrist tattoo of something "badass") or a belief that seems silly to me (like we were "put here" to "do something") and then I stop and think that this is not ever how I wanted to be and I wonder why I am becoming like a Buddhist-oriented version of my fanatical Christian mom??? Then, I remember that I'm not supposed to be getting all involved in accepting and rejecting.

[Pero]

Well I couldn't find the story I was thinking of, though I did find a little similar one. I guess it's possible my memory messed things up since I read about it many years ago. But anyway, I did find this, which is just as good an example.

[padma norbu]

Well I couldn't find the story I was thinking of, though I did find a little similar one. I guess it's possible my memory messed things up since I read about it many years ago. But anyway, I did find this, which is just as good an example.

LOL, no you di'n't! Feral children was the first thing I thought of. Kind of different, though. I wouldn't expect a kid who grew up alone to be a very social animal. I would, however, expect him to learn about wiping his ass. In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

[Pero]

BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much.

Haha you're right about that.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have.

Similar for me. But, though hard as it may be to believe since you only see my internet personality, I actually usually hold my tongue. I don't really concern myself with what others believe, they can believe whatever they like as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. And I don't bother others with my beliefs. It's just not a way to get along with people and it's not productive.

On discussion forums it's different. But not so different since I don't go around Christian forums debating with them for example.

[Pero]

LOL, no you di'n't! Feral children was the first thing I thought of. Kind of different, though. I wouldn't expect a kid who grew up alone to be a very social animal. I would, however, expect him to learn about wiping his ass.

For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them.

In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

Interesting.

[padma norbu]

OH man, I just watched a whole special on "Genie" the wild child on YouTube. Very sad and annoying.

[padma norbu]

BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much.

Haha you're right about that.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have.

Similar for me. But, though hard as it may be to believe since you only see my internet personality, I actually usually hold my tongue. I don't really concern myself with what others believe, they can believe whatever they like as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. And I don't bother others with my beliefs. It's just not a way to get along with people and it's not productive.

On discussion forums it's different. But not so different since I don't go around Christian forums debating with them for example.

I understand completely and I'm the same way. I didn't really mean to make a mountain out of a molehill or anything. But, the idea of spontaneous enlightenment/understanding/liberation/whatever has crossed my mind a few times recently. And just in general, I guess, about how to think about this sort of stuff. I really need to read Rebel Buddha.

[Malcolm]

Not sure what to make of this couple...

On a sidenote, apparently Batman is a togal practitioner too: http://thelostyak.com/2010/02/25/the-co ... oes-togal/

Thank you, I was able to learn more about Togal from that blog about batman than anyone on this board or anywhere else has been willing to share.

"So it might not be too far fetched to see tögal as something of a rehearsal for the events that occur during the death process.

Traditionally, however, tögal is not usually presented in this way."

In fact, traditionally, tögal is frequently presented in this way.

N

[Adamantine]

In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

You're thinking of the Kogi people of Columbia, who call themselves the "Elder Brothers" and they call the rest of us their "younger brothers". There is a documentary about them called "From the Heart of the World: The Elder Brothers Warning" Here's a link to an excerpt http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/51958/The_Elder_Brothers_Warning__Kogi_Tribe_/

And here's a quote from them:

‘A human being has much liquid inside.
If the liquid dries up we fall with
weakness.
This same thing can happen to the
Earth,
Weakness makes you fall,
weakness.'

[heart]

I don't get it, Lama Drimed is capable of leading other people on that level?

/magnus

Yes. He has a number of people in retreat under his guidance doing the main practices of Dzogchen.

So you are saying he reached the third vision himself? Or isn't that necessary to be able to guide people through the visions?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

So you are saying he reached the third vision himself? Or isn't that necessary to be able to guide people through the visions?

/magnus

I don't know. I don't know Lama Drimed personally.

I have friend of mine who did an 8 year retreat under Chagdud Tulku focusing on thogal. But I don't think he got past the second vision himself.

It took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa seven years to reach the third vision in strict retreat.

N

[Pero]

It took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa seven years to reach the third vision in strict retreat.

Wow it takes that much time/effort even in strict retreat?

[heart]

It took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa seven years to reach the third vision in strict retreat.

Wow it takes that much time/effort even in strict retreat?

I think that is actually fast.

/magnus

[padma norbu]

In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

You're thinking of the Kogi people of Columbia, who call themselves the "Elder Brothers" and they call the rest of us their "younger brothers". There is a documentary about them called "From the Heart of the World: The Elder Brothers Warning" Here's a link to an excerpt http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/51958/The_Elder_Brothers_Warning__Kogi_Tribe_/

Thanks, I couldn't say for sure if that was the tribe or not. There could be several or at least a handful of tribes that do this sort of thing, I would imagine. I have forgotten their name and there's no chance I will ever remember it. I started to watch the video and then the dern thing logged me out after about 10 minutes in! I need to register to continue watching, so I will do that a little later. Much thanks for the link, the 10 minutes I saw so far was pretty interesting!

[PadmaDrago]

Even fully enlightened Buddhas above the 10th bhumi can fall, once they start taking on others' karmas, if they are not careful. This is not a popular view among those who would deify the Buddhas, but it is the teachings of Swayambhunatha.

[Yudron]

Who is Swayambhunatha and what does this have to do with the topic?