The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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Astus
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:41 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Son of Buddha
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:52 pm

HEY ASTUS MY REPLY:well yea their is a heirarchy among sutras,and no my heirarchy isnt based upon teintai or any tibetan idea its based UPON THE SUTRAS(also the 3rd turning is literally told of in the lotus sutra and i beleive two other sutras so why wouldnt they beleive it?)

Chapt 1 LS 21
And so I know that now this present Buddha
is about to preach the Lotus Sutra.
The signs now are like those of the earlier auspicious portent,
this is an expedient means used by the Buddhas.
Now when the Buddha emits this beam of brightness
he is helping to reveal the meaning of the true entity of
phenomena.
Human beings now will come to know it

CHAPT 2 LS 26

The world-honored One has long expounded his doctrines
and now must reveal the truth.

CHAPT 7 pg 142 LS
The Buddhas through the power of expedient means
make distinctions and preach three vehicles,
but there is only the single Buddha vehicle--
the other two nirvanas are preached to provide a resting place.
Now I expound the truth for you-
what you have attained is not extinction.

CHAPT 3 LS pg 55
"Now you turn the wheel of the most wonderful,
the unsurpassed great Dharma.
This Dharma is very profound and abstruse;
there are few who can believe it.
Since times past often we have heard
the World-Honored One's preaching,
but we have never heard this kind of profound, wonderful and superior Dharma"

CHAPT 4 LS pg 86
delighting in and clinging to lesser doctrines. But today the World-Honored One causes us to ponder carefully, to cast aside such doctrines, the filth of frivolous debate.

"We were diligent and exerted ourselves in this matter until we had attained nirvana, which is like one day's wages. And once we had attained it, our hearts were filled with great joy and we considered that this was enough. At once we said to ourselves, "Because we have been diligent and exerted ourselves with regard to the Buddhist Dharma, we have gained this breadth and wealth of understanding."

"But the World-Honored One, knowing from past times how our minds cling to unworthy desires and delight in lesser doctrines, pardoned us and let us be, not trying to explain to us by saying, You will come to possess the insight of the Tathagata, your portion of the store of treasures!' Instead the World-Honored One employed the power of expedient means, preaching to us the wisdom of the Tathagata in such a way that we might heed the Buddha and attain nirvana, which is only day's wages. And because we considered this to be a great gain, we had no wish to pursue the Great Vehicle.

"In addition, though we expounded and set forth the Buddha wisdom for the sake of the Bodhisattvas, we ourselves did not aspire to attain it. Why do I say this? Because the Buddha, knowing that our minds delight in lesser doctrines, employed the power of expedient means to preach in a way that was appropriate for us. So we did not know that we were in truth the sons of the Buddha. But now at least we know it.

This is to show the POSITIONAL,it is the Lotus sutra that proclaims the hierarchy among sutras.I'll do a commentary for you:the Lotus sutra is the sutra that teaches the true meaning of all phenomina(emancipation),now the true emancipation was not taught before the lotus sutra as it is stated up above(now I will proclaim the truth)And also when his followers ADMIT they have never heard this law bfore this day(lotus sutra was taught)the last passages just digs it home that the sutras before it were not the teachings of emancipation,and even says the 2 nirvanas before it were "RESTING" nirvanas.

now this would mean the Parjamita sutra would have to come AFTER this sutra cause if it came BEFORE it would be considered lesser doctrine,and not containing the actual emancipation.

yea not most the sutras ive read say they are higher than the others.also your qoute from the prajnaparmita sutra=
Diamond Sutra (ch. 8, tr. C. Muller) says, "all of the buddhas and all of their teachings of peerless perfect enlightenment spring forth from this sūtra."
also says "there is no determinable phenomenon called peerless perfect enlightenment". which means just like the tainted self it doesnt exist anymore(nirvana sutra calls this empty/empty meaning it is empty of the taints and empty of itself which means nothing is left neither the tainted self NOR enlightenment,also read my qoute up above the 2 NIRVANAS were taught as a resting place not the true emancipation.(first nirvana was in the pali canon) what was the next nirvana listed??

The Lotus sutra is the bodhisattva path,the meditation/wisdom that is listed in it is different.(from the lesser provisional to the tathagatagarbha)

hhmmmmm Emptiness of emptiness.

In The Art of Living (2001) the 14th Dalai Lama says, "As your insight into the ultimate nature of reality is deepened and enhanced, you will develop a perception of reality from which you will perceive phenomena and events as sort of illusory, illusion-like, and this mode of perceiving reality will permeate all your interactions with reality. [...] Even emptiness itself, which is seen as the ultimate nature of reality, is not absolute, nor does it exist independently. We cannot conceive of emptiness as independent of a basis of phenomena, because when we examine the nature of reality, we find that it is empty of inherent existence. Then if we are to take that emptiness itself is an object and look for its essence, again we will find that it is empty of inherent existence. Therefore the Buddha taught the emptiness of emptiness."

This is what madhayamaka views the emptiness of the parjnaparamita sutras to be do you agree?

so what you are saying is empty of taints means that the tainted self doesnt exist anymore and is gotten rid of/empty of nirvana also means nirvana also doesnt exist anymore read the chapter you sent me chapt 8 of the prajnaparimita sutra its makes no bones in saying that nirvana is even empty of itself just like tainted self nature it has no nature or essence to speak of and is gotten rid of just as the taints are gotten rid of.

I dont care what Taranatha says,I dont see a sutra attached to his opinion anywhere(which means no evidence its just an opinion and not definite in any manner whatsoever)also note his opponets had his writings locked up and hidden cause it was considered heretical and going against the empty/empty views of madhayamaka,if it went against their views then why does it say they are the same???and lead to the same thing??yea it seems like someone wants to bring them under the traditional Madhyamaka view of emptiness.(seems tampered with)

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Astus
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:47 pm

What I'm missing from your response is the quote showing what other path the Lotus Sutra gives that is different what we find in other sutras. Also, the Lotus Sutra doesn't mention any sutra by title that would be inferior to it, it only talks about the inferiority of sravakas, but not bodhisattvas.

In the first chapter of the Lotus Sutra:
"At that time the Bhagavat was respectfully surrounded by the fourfold assembly (i.e., monks, nuns, laymen, laywomen), paid homage, honored, and praised. He then taught the bodhisattvas the Mahayana sutra called Immeasurable Meanings (Mahānirdeśa), the instruction for the bodhisattvas and the treasured lore of the buddhas."

From the :

“World-Honored One, what is this Dharma Door called? What is its meaning? How should Bodhisattvas train themselves?”
The Buddha replied, “Good men, this one Dharma Door is called Immeasurable Meaning. Bodhisattvas who wish to study and learn the immeasurable meaning should observe that dharmas have always been empty in nature and in appearance. With neither birth nor death, dharmas are neither large nor small, neither moving nor standing still, neither advancing nor retreating. Like space, they are non-dual.”

“The immeasurable meanings are born from one dharma. This one dharma is no appearance, which is not apart from appearance. The truth that appearance and no appearance are not apart from each other is called true reality. As Bodhisattva-Mahāsattvas abide in this true reality, the lovingkindness and compassion they exude are genuine, not false. They can truly end sentient beings’ suffering. Having rescued them from suffering, Bodhisattvas pronounce the Dharma to them, enabling them to experience happiness.

“Good men, if Bodhisattvas can train in this one Dharma Door of Immeasurable Meaning, they will quickly attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi. Good men, this profound, unexcelled Mahāyāna Sūtra of Immeasurable Meaning is true in its principle and supreme in its dignity. It is protected by all Buddhas of the past, present, and future. No māras or non-Buddhists can enter it, nor can it be corrupted by the wrong views that perpetuate birth and death. Therefore, good men, Bodhisattva-Mahāsattvas who wish to attain the unsurpassed bodhi should study and learn this profound, unexcelled Mahāyāna Sūtra of Immeasurable Meaning.”
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Leo Rivers
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Leo Rivers » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:03 pm

The Lotus Sutra takes the already acknowledged system of Three Paths - Sravaka, Pratyeka-Buddha and Bodhisattva, and says "These are Three Forms of Skillful Means designed to "process the Truth" to suit 3 forms of foreshortened Understanding.

The Lotus Sutra itself teaches the One True Path the is not "re-interpreted" to fit a narrow view but is the full presentation of the Path.

The was some discussion in China based of difficulty of translation whether Bodhisattva Path itself "Was" the Forth and True Path, and it was just the case some Bodhisattvas didn't understand the Manner in which it was the True Path - thus thinking there were Three True Paths OR whether it as a Third Path and The Lotus Sutra was a Fourth. Now that Now that situation has been resolved.

There are, in the Lotus View, Three Paths in ordinary View and One Path all along in reality - the Eternal Lotus Sutra. You have to abandon the three lower paths at some point and jump to the Lotus Sutra understanding to finish getting enlightened. This emerged with the Lotus Sutra in the late 1st Century.

The Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma is a separate way of dealing with the growing diversity of the Buddhist Beliefs. It is based on The Buddha presenting the Sravaka Tradition (including both Sravakas and Pratyekabuddha together) and the Madhyamaka (emptiness school) Mahayana Tradition and the Yogacara (conceptualization Only) Mahayana Tradition. This was presented by the Samdhinirmocana Sutra in the late 3d Century.

In the Samdhinirmocana each Path reaches a Nirvana - but a gradation of Nirvana. They don't "only seem" to be true paths. Each "gets there" but there are refinement of there.

The Avatamsaka School has a unique way of stacking sutras as does the Lotus Sutra School - in China. Tibet, being a Tantra Tradition, stacks sutras by View in their own way... all are provisional but after Bhava you do have some preferring the 2nd over the 3rd as "Unexpergated" Truth. The Tantras trump all of these, though, as a discreet "revelation" higher than the sutras... even though they may favor the Emptiness Sutras over the Conceptualization-Only sutras or visa versa.

EVERYBODY stacks sutras to suit their belief system.

Some Ch'en or Zens schools eschew sutras and conceptualization all together. BUT SOME DON"T!

I am quite at home with Soto Zen as Dogon presented it. He teaches Yogacara. In other words, like Kūkai in the Shingon Tantra and Jigme Lingpa in the tantra Tradition, Dogon accepts the fact that BOTH conceptual path and non-conceptual paths need to work together even though logically the may seem mutually exclusive. Knowing that Non Conceptual is correct View yet Conceptual Path is needed even though "you can't get there from here" on it if you think it out is a strangeness of Life just the way it is.

It is Being Human and dualistic that makes conceptual and non-conceptual paths seem mutually exclusive.

Actually, Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable. Dealing with the contradictions of being a dualistic Human with grace is a special charm of the Buddha Dharma. :soapbox:

This has all been my unenlightened Opinion. YMMV

Son of Buddha
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:11 am

[quote="Astus"]What I'm missing from your response is the quote showing what other path the Lotus Sutra gives that is different what we find in other sutras. Also, the Lotus Sutra doesn't mention any sutra by title that would be inferior to it, it only talks about the inferiority of sravakas, but not bodhisattvas.

MY REPLY:
LOTUS SUTRA what i previously posted.
the other two nirvanas are preached to provide a resting place.
Now I expound the truth for you-
what you have attained is not extinction.The world-honored One has long expounded his doctrines
and now must reveal the truth.
Now when the Buddha emits this beam of brightness
he is helping to reveal the meaning of the true entity of
phenomena.Since times past often we have heard
the World-Honored One's preaching,
but we have never heard this kind of profound, wonderful and superior Dharma"

as the passages states the 2 nirvanas before the Lotus sutra were just a resting PLACE not true emancipation,now the Buddha teaches the true entity of all phenomena(emancipation)and the followers state they have NEVER heard this wonderful law,which means they have NEVER HEARD THE TRUE LAW OF EMANCIPATION,which goes back to the Buddha saying the Buddha has taught many sutras(doctrines) BUT MUST NOW REVEAL THE TRUTH(true EMANCIPATION)so what do we get?

the Lotus sutra teaches true emancipation,and this is the FIRST time they have heard this LAW,
this mean the the TRUE EMANCIPATION was not heard in the sutras before the lotus sutra.

THIS up above shows that True emancipation was not given BEFORE the lotus sutra.

YOU STATED:
"Also, the Lotus Sutra doesn't mention any sutra by title that would be inferior to it, it only talks about the inferiority of sravakas, but not bodhisattvas"

MY REPLY:
the other two nirvanas are preached to provide a resting place.
Now I expound the truth for you-
what you have attained is not extinction
The world-honored One has long expounded his doctrines
and now must reveal the truth.
delighting in and clinging to lesser doctrines. But today the World-Honored One causes us to ponder carefully, to cast aside such doctrines, the filth of frivolous debate.
"But the World-Honored One, knowing from past times how our minds cling to unworthy desires and delight in lesser doctrines,
Because the Buddha, knowing that our minds delight in lesser doctrines, employed the power of expedient means to preach in a way that was appropriate for us. So we did not know that we were in truth the sons of the Buddha. But now at least we know it.

yes it does talk about the inferiority of the sravakas AND it also talks about the inferiority of the doctrines the Buddha taught previously before the Lotus sutra as proven above,the 2 nirvanas were a resting place not true emancipation.ALL the sutras before the Lotus sutra were expedients that were appropriate for us at that time,which leads us to the true emancipation which was first taught in the LS.


The Lotus sutra gives the Bodhisattva path,I never said It doesnt teach the Bodhisattva path nor got rid of it.if you read the Lotus sutra you will also see that many of the Bodhisattvas also havent heard the new teaching(emancipation) that is found in the lotus sutra.what I am saying is the 6 paramitas is correct(bodhisattva path) and that the meditation and wisdom aspect to reach enlightenment in that path is different than what was taught before the lotus sutra.the lotus sutra simply gave a new doctrine on emancipation which is shown in the Nirvana sutra(the empty/empty emptiness that was taught before as the meditative path in the 6 paramitas in the Prajnaparamita sutras has now been taught to not lead to emancipation.this goes in line with what I qouted from the sutra above.their are 2 nirvanas that was taught before and these are NOT actual emancipation.read the parables the Buddha says he will give you many carts,then at the end you dont get those,EMANCIPATION was never those previous carts its the new one.
In the first chapter of the Lotus Sutra:

YOU STATED"At that time the Bhagavat was respectfully surrounded by the fourfold assembly (i.e., monks, nuns, laymen, laywomen), paid homage, honored, and praised. He then taught the bodhisattvas the Mahayana sutra called Immeasurable Meanings (Mahānirdeśa), the instruction for the bodhisattvas and the treasured lore of the buddhas."

MY REPLY: YES the Buddha only teaches Bodhisattvas,but the question is what is the EMANCIPATION that is taught in the (meditation/wisdom) of the 6 paramitas thats leads to emancipation?this was the difference the chande everything else staryed the same,also I did cover what the new meditation was,Buddha wisdom/all void,which is what the Buddha talks about when he proclaims the new unheard of LAW.

also the immesurable meanings would fall under the BEFORE and provisional that is leading up to the law,

YOU STATED“Good men, if Bodhisattvas can train in this one Dharma Door of Immeasurable Meaning, they will quickly attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi.
MY REPLY this sums it up,it isnt EMANCIPATION itself it will help you quickly attain emacipation,as the Nirvana sutra states the you progress on the path of the 11 emptinesses BEFORE you take the last meditation,so YES it would be the path(apart of the statges leading up to Emancipation).

Peace and Love

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Astus
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:10 am

The other two nirvanas the Lotus Sutra talks about is the nirvana of sravakas and pratyekabuddhas, and the only true liberation is buddhahood that the bodhisattvas attain. That is what the one vehicle means, that both sravakas and pratyekabuddhas will become bodhisattvas and attain buddhahood. The idea that the Lotus Sutra points to the Nirvana Sutra is not mentioned in the sutra itself, and the connection between them is not established in any of them. What the Lotus Sutra calls the previous sutras are the teachings taught to the sravakas, since they say that they have not heard about it before, but not the teachings of Mahayana. Also, the connection you make between the Lotus and the Nirvana Sutra are your interpretation and not stated in them. Explaining one with the other is possible, but not necessary at all. The Lankavatara Sutra is a teaching that actually talks about the buddha-nature, and it also says that (XXVIII): "the reason why the Tathagatas who are Arhats and Fully-Enlightened Ones, teach the doctrine pointing to the Tathagata-garbha is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to the teaching of egolessness and to have them realise the state of non-discrimination and imagelessness." As Ven. Yinshun, a modern master, sums it up (The Way to Buddhahood, §182, p. 315), "Some may think that the law of arising and extinction/Cannot be the foundation of being bound and being liberated/Because they are afraid of the phrase "the nonexistence of the self."/Therefore, the Buddha again embraced them with skillful means." This way the Nirvana Sutra can be rendered into another of the skilful teachings of the Buddha. And that's what the Lotus Sutra actually says, that all and every teaching of the Buddha is a means to liberation. The teaching is not the liberation itself but only something that points to it. Whether one can be helped by this or that method is not important as long as it works. And that is what ultimately makes Buddhism a single vehicle.

So, the question then is, what actual method is taught in the Nirvana Sutra? With what can one attain liberation according to the Nirvana Sutra? Simply the statement that there is a buddha-nature is not a path, not a technique, but a concept. How can we work with that idea? What brings us to liberation in that?
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Son of Buddha
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:12 am


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Astus
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:01 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Son of Buddha
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:17 am


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:00 am


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Astus
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Astus » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:35 am

There are a couple of Mahayana traditions where they take the Nirvana Sutra as an important scripture, like in Tiantai and Chan. However, if you say they have no meditation like the one you say exists in the sutra itself, it is either that there has never been such a meditation, or there was but disappeared, or the meditation exists in the traditions but not the way you understand the sutra.

For instance, Hongren's (5th patriarch of Chan) Treatise on the Supreme Vehicle (quotes from T. Cleary: Minding Mind) refers to the Nirvana Sutra three times (quite a lot in a small work) says simply,

"If you can just keep the mind still so that errant thought does not arise, the reality of nirvana will naturally appear. This is how we know the inherent mind is originally pure."

And also,

"When errant imagining ceases, you are accurately aware. By virtue of accurate awareness, dispassionately perceptive knowledge arises. By dispassionately perceptive knowledge, one finds out the nature of reality. By finding out the nature of reality, one attains nirvana. This is how we know that preserving the fundamental true mind is the basis of nirvana."
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Son of Buddha
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:03 am

Hey Astus

Sorry on my pho.e again.
Im interested in the 5th patriarch u listed.i will look more into his teachings on meditation on the tathagatagarbha.

From what u wrote it seems he got the concept right.
To see the pure mind that is empty of everything except itself.

Peace and love

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:24 pm


Son of Buddha
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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:35 am

any one wish to talk about the Mahaparanirvana sutra?

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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Illuminaughty » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:04 am


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:22 am


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Illuminaughty » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:27 pm


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:25 am


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:15 pm


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Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:38 pm



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