Lesson from the Sun

[gregkavarnos]

Yes, well, actually...

If all phenomena are equal (since all are empty), then it is no more or less advanced to choose and use a phenomenon that is considered "positive" or "negative" as an object of meditation. And it should not matter if one experienced positive or negative "arisings" since equanimity is the key anyway. The object one chooses will assist one to overcome the extreme that one will deal with. If one chooses a "positive" phenomenon and achieves eqaunimity then one has overcome attachment, if one chooses a "negative" phenomenon and achieves equanimity then one has overcome aversion. For some people excessive attachment is their problem and thus they must deal with objects of attachment and for others it is excesive aversion that is the problem, so they must deal with objects of aversion. It has nothing to do with levels of experience or capacity, it just has to do with ones current karmic preponderence.

So, nothing to pat oneself on the back about there I am afraid, because (based on what you are saying and how you present it) it sounds to me that the only thing that happened to you was an increase in pride regarding your apparent spiritual capacities.

Dog shit and roses both have a scent, but it is our minds which smell sweetly or stink!

[lobster]

So, nothing to pat oneself on the back about there I am afraid, because (based on what you are saying and how you present it) it sounds to me that the only thing that happened to you was an increase in pride regarding your apparent spiritual capacities

How true.
Good to be humbled, I take great pride in my humility.

Fortunately my spiritual capacities are non existent. Long may they remain so.

[xtracorrupt]

Pantheism? If I spent my whole time worshipping everything it wouldn't leave much time for anything alse really, would it?

What if you worshipped only happiness? What else would u need time for?

Depends what you mean by happiness.

Not having to suffer, what else could happiness be?

[gregkavarnos]

If I get drunk and party, I am happy and I am not suffering. Is this liberation from suffering? Or maybe you are talking about "pleasure as the greatest good' in Epicurian terms? What if I am happy when I go hunting (ie killing sentient beings)? What if my happiness is based on satisfying my greed or desire?

So what is happiness then? What do you mean by happiness?

[xtracorrupt]

If I get drunk and party, I am happy and I am not suffering. Is this liberation from suffering? Or maybe you are talking about "pleasure as the greatest good' in Epicurian terms? What if I am happy when I go hunting (ie killing sentient beings)? What if my happiness is based on satisfying my greed or desire?

So what is happiness then? What do you mean by happiness?

Who ever said its about you? Is your freedom of suffering important or is all freedom of suffering important? Allow happiness because there's no reason not to allow happiness. If somebody asks you to do something, why not do it unless it causes suffering? Why not have the answer to every question? Why answer a question if you don't have the answer? Why would you want to cause dissatisfaction? Do you have to experience something to understand it? Is there anything you actually have to do? Why would you allow yourself to have greed or desire in the first place, is it necessary? What reason is there to suffer, when suffering is unnecessary. Why would you have to suffer? Happiness is not having to follow phenomena, no restriction, no reason for dissatisfaction, no need for suffering, no need for anything. Do we have to understand the cause of suffering or can we simply not participate in it? How can we be happy when we think we need to suffer, we think we need something to happen. Why can't we just be happy? There is no liberation from suffering until there is no more need for suffering.

[gregkavarnos]

Is your freedom of suffering important or is all freedom of suffering important?

My point exactly.

Allow happiness because there's no reason not to allow happiness. If somebody asks you to do something, why not do it unless it causes suffering?

How do you know if it will cause suffering or not? How is it possible to bring relative happiness without causing relative suffering?

Why would you want to cause dissatisfaction?

I don't.

Why would you allow yourself to have greed or desire in the first place, is it necessary? What reason is there to suffer, when suffering is unnecessary. Why would you have to suffer?

We've already answered that one.

Happiness is not having to follow phenomena, no restriction, no reason for dissatisfaction, no need for suffering, no need for anything.

Tantric practitioners may disagree with you on renunciation.

Do we have to understand the cause of suffering or can we simply not participate in it?

If you don't know where you are coming from how will you know where to go?

How can we be happy when we think we need to suffer, we think we need something to happen.

We don't need to suffer, we do suffer.

Why can't we just be happy? There is no liberation from suffering until there is no more need for suffering.

And how do you believe that this is achieved, coz to me it seems only to be achieved by overcoming ignorance. As long as we are trapped in attachment to the pleasurable and aversion to the disagreeable...

[anjali]

A while back I was rereading Dilgo Khyentse's The Heart of Compassion. There was one quote that struck this time around. In the context of discussing Avalokiteshvara, he said, "Even a fresh summer breeze is the activity of the buddhas." Sometimes the sun can be seen as the activity of the buddhas.

Perhaps the lesson of the sun is one of gratitude. Here in the US this coming Thursday is a national holiday--Thanksgiving. Rather than a creator god, I will be expressing gratitude to the Buddha, dharma and sangha, my teachers and to the beneficial activities of the buddhas that manifest in my life.

[xtracorrupt]

Why can't we just be happy? There is no liberation from suffering until there is no more need for suffering.

And how do you believe that this is achieved, coz to me it seems only to be achieved by overcoming ignorance. As long as we are trapped in attachment to the pleasurable and aversion to the disagreeable...

Not believing in phenomenon, wanting to be satisfaction and not need

[xtracorrupt]

All that matters is happiness, you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything

[Seishin]

you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything

I think this part is important. This is what non-clinging is all about. We go about our everyday life thinking that "things" make us happy and when they are gone we experience dukkha. When we realise that we don't need these things we become contented. (I think contented is a better word than happy )

Gassho,
Seishin.

[xtracorrupt]

you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything

I think this part is important. This is what non-clinging is all about. We go about our everyday life thinking that "things" make us happy and when they are gone we experience dukkha. When we realise that we don't need these things we become contented. (I think contented is a better word than happy )

Gassho,
Seishin.

Thats why phenomenon is bad because it means we need a need to have an effect, which is wrong because we don't need anything to be happy. The normality of happiness proves that phenomenon is unnecessary. Thats why we should function with intuition, because intuition is being happy. One possibility of existence is that we still need to exist after our own satisfaction because other phenomenon need us to exist, therefore we have to justify there need of our existence by bringing only satisfaction/happiness/prevention of suffering/prevention of need . Thats why I think we should stop believing in phenomenon, and then when were not attached to it we can use it to make happiness the only necessity. Ensuring happiness and making dissatisfaction impossible because we would already have what we need. We know we don't need happiness but we should want it because thats the only expectation thats right. What else could we rightfully need?

[lowlydog]

All that matters is happiness, you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything

All that matters is dukka, no-thing will make you happy, you do need things.

[xtracorrupt]

All that matters is happiness, you don't need anything to be happy, you don't need anything

All that matters is dukka, no-thing will make you happy, you do need things.

Ok, but why would you need things if you have happiness? And how can something be more valuable then happiness?

[gregkavarnos]

Not believing in phenomenon, wanting to be satisfaction and not need

Not believing in phenomena? Like not believing in the speeding car and stepping in front of it will bring happiness and liberation? Not believing in the feeling of hunger and not believing in eating food will bring satisfaction?

[Seishin]

Thats why phenomenon is bad because it means we need a need to have an effect, which is wrong because we don't need anything to be happy. The normality of happiness proves that phenomenon is unnecessary. Thats why we should function with intuition, because intuition is being happy. One possibility of existence is that we still need to exist after our own satisfaction because other phenomenon need us to exist, therefore we have to justify there need of our existence by bringing only satisfaction/happiness/prevention of suffering/prevention of need . Thats why I think we should stop believing in phenomenon, and then when were not attached to it we can use it to make happiness the only necessity. Ensuring happiness and making dissatisfaction impossible because we would already have what we need. We know we don't need happiness but we should want it because thats the only expectation thats right. What else could we rightfully need?

I don't quite understand the above. You seem to be saying:
-Intuition is happy
-Phenomena exists because of us
-Not believing in phenomena makes us happy
-We don't need happiness
-But happiness is the only right thing

Is that correct?

Gassho,
Seishin.

[lowlydog]

Ok, but why would you need things if you have happiness? And how can something be more valuable then happiness?

You need to eat, drink water, cloth yourself to protect from the elements, also human beings are social creatures we need others. We can however develope detachment from these things, we can remain detatched from the food we need and eat solely for the purpose of survival. We can remain detatched from the type of clothing we wear and not get caught up in fashion trends and over consumption, and we can remain happy all the time we do this.

True happiness is not a thing, and cannot have a value.

Simply, be happy

[Dave The Seeker]

According to Lama Zopa

Your compassion is the source of happiness of even the people and animals you encounter in everyday life. Without compassion there are personality ego-clashes and many other problems—anger, jealousy and the like.

[xtracorrupt]

Ok, but why would you need things if you have happiness? And how can something be more valuable then happiness?

You need to eat, drink water, cloth yourself to protect from the elements, also human beings are social creatures we need others. We can however develope detachment from these things, we can remain detatched from the food we need and eat solely for the purpose of survival. We can remain detatched from the type of clothing we wear and not get caught up in fashion trends and over consumption, and we can remain happy all the time we do this.

True happiness is not a thing, and cannot have a value.

Simply, be happy

needing things other then happiness is suffering...

[gregkavarnos]

needing things other then happiness is suffering...

Needing happiness is suffering. In the Karma Kagyu ngondro practices one thing that we recite EVERY DAY is that during our practice we will not "...succumb to the power of the eight worldly dharmas". The eight worldly dharmas are: the hope for happiness, fame, praise and gain and the fear of suffering, disgrace, blame and loss.

You are falling prey to the hope for happiness and the fear of suffering. Your view is not the path to liberation.

[xtracorrupt]

needing things other then happiness is suffering...

Needing happiness is suffering. In the Karma Kagyu ngondro practices one thing that we recite EVERY DAY is that during our practice we will not "...succumb to the power of the eight worldly dharmas". The eight worldly dharmas are: the hope for happiness, fame, praise and gain and the fear of suffering, disgrace, blame and loss.

You are falling prey to the hope for happiness and the fear of suffering. Your view is not the path to liberation.

No, wanting happiness is good and wanting suffering is bad. Needing happiness is not suffering becaues it is wanting whats good. How can deisiring whats rightful be bad? Wanting happiness is good will, Desiring good will is exactly what an unawakened being should want. Awakened beings have achieved good will, they`ve realized all that mattters is happiness. If we needed happiness we would have everything we need because we wouldn`t need anything. How could we need something which we already have? We wouldn`t need anything anymore so disatisfaction wouldn`t be possible. How could we be disatisfied with no expectations? Hapiness is good desire, Suffering is bad desire. Its good to want happiness, because you can only be disatisfied if your ignorant