Regarding Chinese spies

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:14 am

The Tibetan system is moving forward in exile but this can only bring limited benefits to the Tibetan people inside Tibet.

For many years I simply practiced Buddhism and thought that the situation in Tibet, although sad, was really not my business as a foreigner.

This changed when I learned the Tibetan language and started speaking directly to people that suffered under the Chinese government- prison, torture, rape, unbelievable suffering. This hit home for me when I went swimming with a Tibetan friend in Dharamsala and saw the scars of bullet holes in his back, which he hand endured running over the border. I realized that if I loved this religious tradition, its people and their culture (despite their imperfections) to say nothing of the cultural genocide going on in Tibet would not be authentic.

I then realized that in China due to the system the people cannot practice their religion. I realized that my teachers came from Tibet - not a perfect land - but the land which held the Dharma in a very complete way- Sutra and Tantra- for hundreds of years after it had disappeared from India. As an inheritor of that tradition, I am grateful to the Tibetan people for preserving it. This is why I prickle a little bit when I see the Western, Chinese and in some case Buddhist media trying to portray the Tibetans as backward savages, illiterate and ignorant. Not only is this racist, if not for them, we would not have access to the very complete system of teachings carried through the Tibetan tradition.

So if speaking about the suffering of the Tibetan people and supporting their aspirations for freedom makes me political, so be it. I cannot stand back and watch people burn and say nothing. Just as I feel compelled to say something about how in my country of Canada we treat our native people poorly, how people are being killed in Syria, etc.

Due to dependent arising, my practice of Buddhism did not come about separate from the Tibetan people and their culture. All of us who practice this dharma are very much connected to the Tibetan people. My ability to study Buddhism and the Tibetan language, to learn more about the path that frees myself and others from suffering all comes due to the kindness of my Tibetan teachers. If not for the HHDL leading the Tibetans into exile I would never have met my lamas. I probably would not have been able to become a monk. I definitely would not have the tremendous privilege of translating Geshe Sonam's teachings. I would not have been able to receive initiations into the rarest of dharmas, the path of Secret Mantra.

I am not telling people how to vote. But I am speaking against systems that cause suffering that could be easily prevented.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:23 pm

conebeckham wrote:Caz-
I think the word "Politics" can mean many things....in it's purest form, it describes the relations between persons or groups of persons, though we use it these days to mean, mainly, the practice or profession of governance of nations.

I think that politics is inevitable in religion, because "religion" is an institution and all human institutions are comprised of people and their relations. Not only that, but politics can also be said to deal specifically with power and authority, control. It takes no imagination to understand the relevance of "politics" of this sort, in any institutionalized religion. In simplest form, the Guru/Disciple relationship can be said to be a political one.

In fact, the creation of "new" organizations, from bifurcations or differences of doctrine, belief, or practice, is a political maneuver. You should know, and understand, this, in your own organization.

Having said that, I'm a firm believer in the Seperation of Church and State, both here in the US, and as an ideal throughout the world, and I am happy, and guardedly optimistic, to see Tibetans In Exile move away from a quasi-feudal "Dharma-cracy" to a representative Democracy. Nonetheless, political forces will continue to operate in the institutions of Tibetan religions, just as they do in all institutions.


Sounds about right. :applause:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:44 pm

JKhedrup, I'm with you. I am friends with many Tibetans, several of whom escaped from their country and endured tremendous hardship. Politics, to them, is not merely an argument on the internet. The best thing we can do is practice the Dharma to the best of our ability, and at the same time, not turn our back on the sufferings of others, and be aware, with open eyes and open hearts, to the endless varieties of inhumanity that are practiced by our fellow creatures on each other. Dharma practice is primary, "activism," to me, is secondary--but there is a balance that can be reached, unique for each individual, I think.

Our mind is primary, but it is our actions, borne of our thoughts, that determine our situation.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Huifeng » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:19 am

lotwell wrote:Regarding Chinese spies (Tib: rGya nak ki so pa):

How to identify them?

:sage:

Lotwell


Seems to me that the title of this thread is rather unfortunate, and perhaps "communist" or "communist party" spies may have been more on the mark. After all, the people referred to may or may not be Chinese, and may or may not come from China, no? (Please correct me if I am wrong on this point.) The term used brings in other issues that rather than being helpful, may actually exacerbate problems.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:28 am

It is good to specify Chinese GOVERNMENT or Chinese political system in posts, I agree. This is the added tragic dimension of the whole situation, that the Chinese people in China too live in fear of their regime. We see this with the case of Chen Guangcheng and countless others. The situation in Tibet I would say is more grave simply because the culture is in very real danger of being wiped out. But certainly all ethnic groups in China, including the Han people, suffer under the repressive political system. A change would benefit everyone living within the borders.
And most Tibetans I have spoken to have resigned themselves to living within the borders of the PRC, they just want a practical level of autonomy. Even those who wish for independence would likely be satisfied with a free and open environment in which to practice their religion, speak their language and express their opinions.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Sherlock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:36 am

What can we do to help with that? I just hope that maybe the next generation of communist leaders, educated in the West, understand a bit more about this and allow the Tibetans to have more freedom to use their language and keep their culture.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:01 pm

I remember when I was in Shanghai. I was staying in a dilapidated (once grand) hotel near the river and decided to talk a walk around this beautiful building with its ball room etc...

Anyway, as I was walking around the building I wandered into a part of it that was obviously not being used as a hotel. As I shuffled through this dark and apparently unused section I stumbled across a half open door and peeked in. It was a smallish room full of video screens being watched by a number of plain clothed Chinese men. They noticed my presence, so I quickly continued to saunter along casually, as if not having seen anything.

I later found out that the hotel was directly across the road from the Russian embassy and that the men were probably either watching the goings on in the embassy, or keeping tabs on the patrons of the hotel.

That is the level of paranoia that the Chinese Goverment works at. Not very much unlike the US government really! Or almost any government, now that I stopped to think about it.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Indrajala » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:12 pm

I have to wonder if the new leaders of the PRC will make any substantial changes to how they treat Tibetans and other minorities (Uyghurs are often forgotten in Xinjiang).

One hurdle is that there is a long-standing bureaucracy with much personal interest in the Tibetan issue. The whole security apparatus pays the salaries of many individuals and their whole careers are based on it. There's also the propaganda machine, the internet police and all the supporting agencies. Everyone has something at stake. If they made genuine reforms a lot of these people would be out of work. The upper echelons are likely quite influential, too, so they are not so easily dismissed.

I hope changes will be made. The new leadership is apparently cutting some older offices which would hinder reforms.

We'll see though.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Indrajala » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:That is the level of paranoia that the Chinese Goverment works at. Not very much unlike the US government really! Or almost any government, now that I stopped to think about it.
:namaste:


China is actually barely held together. It is economically and culturally fractured in many ways. The rural poor have little to do with the rich elite of Shanghai and elsewhere. Southern China thinks of itself as culturally different from the north, too.

There are continual riots across the country which are not reported by national media. It isn't just Tibetans and Uyghurs who are mistreated.

If the economic success wears thin you could easily see the whole thing unravel. I think the elites are aware of this and this is why many of them take out a second citizenship (for instance you can buy a Canadian passport legitimately with an "investor visa").
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:15 pm

Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


Geez, I never thought of this before. Somewhere in China some poor SOB is trying to make sense of all these lolcat messages and references that keep popping up. He's wonderiing like why would anyone put a hat on a cat then laugh at it?

Haha they'll never crack the code.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Sherlock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:16 pm

The news is just out on the PRC's new cabinet. It looks like they are mostly reactionaries.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Caz » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:42 pm

catmoon wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


Geez, I never thought of this before. Somewhere in China some poor SOB is trying to make sense of all these lolcat messages and references that keep popping up. He's wonderiing like why would anyone put a hat on a cat then laugh at it?

Haha they'll never crack the code.


:spy:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:15 pm

catmoon wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


Geez, I never thought of this before. Somewhere in China some poor SOB is trying to make sense of all these lolcat messages and references that keep popping up. He's wonderiing like why would anyone put a hat on a cat then laugh at it?

Haha they'll never crack the code.


Wouldn't tempt them.They may start sending their ghouls after you.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:47 am

Huseng wrote:China is actually barely held together. It is economically and culturally fractured in many ways. The rural poor have little to do with the rich elite of Shanghai and elsewhere. Southern China thinks of itself as culturally different from the north, too.

There are continual riots across the country which are not reported by national media. It isn't just Tibetans and Uyghurs who are mistreated.

If the economic success wears thin you could easily see the whole thing unravel. I think the elites are aware of this and this is why many of them take out a second citizenship (for instance you can buy a Canadian passport legitimately with an "investor visa").


It is no problem for China... it is the way the country was always during their history, which embraces chronology of all other world civilizations, which did not survive. Including the Egypt of pharaohs :))) so we should not underestimate ability of China to hold together etc.
There were always riots, culture, nations and language differences, south and north gap, poor and rich etc. etc. etc. and what?! :) Just look, It is still Great China... they went even through craziness of CR, hunger and starvation, etc. etc. such factors are mostly reason for the countries or systems to collapse... but not in China. They are very skillful in managing all difficulties, regardless human costs. You yourself know Chinese, their language etc., so you should know their history as well...

Tibet is really minor problem for China, and they manage it very well, keeping all governments silent, including USA and Russia, and all the pro-tibetan movements are well watched by the Chinese espionage and special departments in Chinese embassies all over the world. They have resources, money, manpower, etc. etc.

Uyghurs is another political problem. First they are supported by their Muslim brothers, money and weapons are coming by different channels, Chinese are cornered in Xian, and have to defend themselves, China is a bit stuck, since they get crude oil from m. brothers, and they also want to make business with them in Africa. Uighurs are able to launch successful military attacks on Chinese bases. This is real pain in Chinese as... so there is only Islam which is not negotiable power and gives a kick in crouch... And STILL China holds it.

And Tibetans? Who cares in the world?! The biggest one can imagine are symbolic gestures, that is all ...

China having great intelligence refills now Tibetan Buddhist structures with their own tulkus, lamas, people etc.is doing the grass root work, and will succeed one day or another, if there will be no change. And there will be no change... they did not changed for last 5000 years, why they should change now :)
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:38 am

Matylda wrote:
Huseng wrote:China is actually barely held together. It is economically and culturally fractured in many ways. The rural poor have little to do with the rich elite of Shanghai and elsewhere. Southern China thinks of itself as culturally different from the north, too.

There are continual riots across the country which are not reported by national media. It isn't just Tibetans and Uyghurs who are mistreated.

If the economic success wears thin you could easily see the whole thing unravel. I think the elites are aware of this and this is why many of them take out a second citizenship (for instance you can buy a Canadian passport legitimately with an "investor visa").


It is no problem for China... it is the way the country was always during their history, which embraces chronology of all other world civilizations, which did not survive. Including the Egypt of pharaohs :))) so we should not underestimate ability of China to hold together etc.
There were always riots, culture, nations and language differences, south and north gap, poor and rich etc. etc. etc. and what?! :) Just look, It is still Great China... they went even through craziness of CR, hunger and starvation, etc. etc. such factors are mostly reason for the countries or systems to collapse... but not in China. They are very skillful in managing all difficulties, regardless human costs. You yourself know Chinese, their language etc., so you should know their history as well...

Tibet is really minor problem for China, and they manage it very well, keeping all governments silent, including USA and Russia, and all the pro-tibetan movements are well watched by the Chinese espionage and special departments in Chinese embassies all over the world. They have resources, money, manpower, etc. etc.

Uyghurs is another political problem. First they are supported by their Muslim brothers, money and weapons are coming by different channels, Chinese are cornered in Xian, and have to defend themselves, China is a bit stuck, since they get crude oil from m. brothers, and they also want to make business with them in Africa. Uighurs are able to launch successful military attacks on Chinese bases. This is real pain in Chinese as... so there is only Islam which is not negotiable power and gives a kick in crouch... And STILL China holds it.

And Tibetans? Who cares in the world?! The biggest one can imagine are symbolic gestures, that is all ...

China having great intelligence refills now Tibetan Buddhist structures with their own tulkus, lamas, people etc.is doing the grass root work, and will succeed one day or another, if there will be no change. And there will be no change... they did not changed for last 5000 years, why they should change now :)


When the Dalai Lama is dead,Tibetan Buddhism will crumble.I don't need an oracle to tell me that.China will "find" the "new" Dalai Lama just like they did the Panchen Lama.No doubt he'll be a puppet for China.Then,the monks will try to find the new Dalai Lama but China will most likely try to stop this.What really worries me though,is what if China actually picks the real Dalai Lama(knowingly or unknowingly)and manages to brainwash him.I think the Dalai Lama should try to reincarnate somewhere else or try to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime.At least then the Chinese won't be able to sink their fingers into his next incarnation.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:06 am

Red Faced Buddha wrote:When the Dalai Lama is dead,Tibetan Buddhism will crumble.I don't need an oracle to tell me that.China will "find" the "new" Dalai Lama just like they did the Panchen Lama.No doubt he'll be a puppet for China.Then,the monks will try to find the new Dalai Lama but China will most likely try to stop this.What really worries me though,is what if China actually picks the real Dalai Lama(knowingly or unknowingly)and manages to brainwash him.I think the Dalai Lama should try to reincarnate somewhere else or try to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime.At least then the Chinese won't be able to sink their fingers into his next incarnation.
I think you will find that Tibetan Buddhism will do just fine after the Dalai Lamas death. With or without a Dalai Lama.

You do realise that the Dalai Lama lineage (offically) only started in 1578? That the first two Dalai Lama (Gendun Drup and GendunGyatso) were recognised as such posthumusly anyway? That the first tulku lineage were actually the Karmapas, beginining with the first Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (a student of Gampopa) who lived from 1110-1193? That Buddhism "officially" took a Tibetan turn with Padmasambhava around 770?

Buddhism existed in Tibet well before the Dalai Lama and will conitinue to exist after his demise (long life to him!).
:namaste:

PS It may also surprise you to know that the Dalai Lama has already stated that he will not reincarnate again.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:12 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:When the Dalai Lama is dead,Tibetan Buddhism will crumble.I don't need an oracle to tell me that.China will "find" the "new" Dalai Lama just like they did the Panchen Lama.No doubt he'll be a puppet for China.Then,the monks will try to find the new Dalai Lama but China will most likely try to stop this.What really worries me though,is what if China actually picks the real Dalai Lama(knowingly or unknowingly)and manages to brainwash him.I think the Dalai Lama should try to reincarnate somewhere else or try to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime.At least then the Chinese won't be able to sink their fingers into his next incarnation.
I think you will find that Tibetan Buddhism will do just fine after the Dalai Lamas death. With or without a Dalai Lama.

You do realise that the Dalai Lama lineage (offically) only started in 1578? That the first two Dalai Lama (Gendun Drup and GendunGyatso) were recognised as such posthumusly anyway? That the first tulku lineage were actually the Karmapas, beginining with the first Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (a student of Gampopa) who lived from 1110-1193? That Buddhism "officially" took a Tibetan turn with Padmasambhava around 770?

Buddhism existed in Tibet well before the Dalai Lama and will conitinue to exist after his demise (long life to him!).
:namaste:

PS It may also surprise you to know that the Dalai Lama has already stated that he will not reincarnate again.


:cheers:
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Yudron » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:29 pm

Greg, I don't think the Dalai Lama has stated he will not reincarnate again, just that he won't do so inside Chinese territory.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby heart » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:13 pm

Yudron wrote:Greg, I don't think the Dalai Lama has stated he will not reincarnate again, just that he won't do so inside Chinese territory.


He said several times that he don't think there should be an other Dalai Lama but that of course he will incarnate for the benefit of sentient beings.

/magnus
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:53 pm

Well I think everybody is wrong :) like always :D

DL should be born CHINESE... And best choice wold be some powerful family like Deng's or so.. then he must become a party member and climb up to Chairman position, Then take over China and make it simply like Tibet before. CP Chairman is almost in his powers as big as DL in Tibet before... then Tibetan Buddhism will not only survive, but take much better course.

Look, use Chinese method of war and control and everything will be ok. I wish DL will be Chinese... then it will be the end of PRC as communist country. It will be just Greater Tibet :) Minimalism in politics is deadly dangerous.
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