Regarding Chinese spies

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:18 pm

JohnRammy wrote:I can cite academic sources, that say the Chinese government forces monks to worship Dorje Shugden, denounce the Dalai Lama etc.

Not to mention the numerous other bullshit activities the PRC does.


I assumed the Chinese were atheist.Forcing anyone to worship a deity seems Anti-Communist.Anyway,technically,doesn't China have a right to Tibet?I don't like what they're doing but still.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby pemachophel » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:21 am

For a very clear historical explanation of why Tibet is not part of China, see The Story of Tibet by Thomas Laird. I thought I knew Tibetan history pretty well until I read this book. It made so many things so much clearer for me. I recommend it highly.

BTW, when I was a medical student in Shanghai back in the early 80s, there were "watchers" on every street. If I went out and about for the day, the Wai Ban (foreigners' boss) at the college I was attending knew my every move by the time I got back that evening. All our mail was censored. It took several weeks before we "barbarians (wai guo ren)" got our first mail. When we did, each envelop had a tiny triangle ripped out of an upper corner where the censors had rolled up the letter inside around a pencil or stick and had slid them out of the envelopes. We had a Swiss girl in our class whose family spoke Romanche (the 4th language of Switzerland). When we all got our mail, she didn't. It was weeks and weeks before she finally received a pile of letters from her parents. The Chinese didn't deliver her mail because they couldn't find anyone who could read Romanche. Ha! Of course, our "handlers" vehemently denied that our mail was censored. They said that was against Chinese law. What a hoot!

Last fall, when I was in Boudha just before H.H. gave the Kalachakra in Bodhgaya, all the Tibetans were saying that the town was full of Chinese spies. Everyone was pretty paranoid. On top of that, there were no lack of Nepali watchers hanging about.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:48 am

I second Pemachopel's recommendation, and also recommend "Tibetan Nation," regarding the complex history of Sino-Tibetan relations.

And a fair number of those "Nepali Watchers" were likely PRC spies...
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:35 pm

lisehull wrote:I am not denying the accuracy of your comments, per se, just wanting to know your sources. You still haven't given specific sources for your information.
:thanks:
Lise


Believe me Lise, I would love to do it... however the sources have families.. families in Kham and other regions of Tibet. Guess what may happen to those Tibetan families when sources are publicly disclosed??? Nothing auspicious. Basically jail, lost contact, and fear what would happen to them.. Chinese and their Tibetan collaborative part are very clever.. they have hostages in their hands. We have to be extremely sober and remember that the situation is more then complex.

Even when we know about impostors working in the West there is very little space for any move or action. When very credible Rinpoches and lamas know about it they have to think first about their families and relatives who are still over there.

In case of my friends in Europe we already lost somebody in Tibet... only because of some suspicion concerning contact wit outside world... police came and took a man. When people in the West think of spies or fake tulkus they do not consider the human costs behind this game... so sorry. I promise never to disclose even one source of mine as long as they are people who may pay over there with their own security for this info.

I know names of Rinpoches involved in this brutal politics and dirty games.. those are real tulkus even recognized before 1959, never left Tibet... but got to the other side and are pain in ass... actually not all who got even against their own will some administrative position from Chinese.. some refuse to cooperate that far, but those are mostly in trouble themselves..

But even they sit sometimes in one raw with fake tulkus.. Chinese may force them... I've seen pictures and videos like that.. in this sense tulku system is real danger in Chinese hands. Plus many other lamas or monks who are on the Chinese payroll... When my friend went to China was interrogated 3 times by Chinese secret police who appeared in disguise as tourist guides. One openly admitted what they wanted from him...
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Many dismiss it as paranoia but I think it is not. The "Social Stability" budget of the PRC outweighs its military budget (which, incidentally, is the second largest in the world).

This means they have unlimited resources to monitor those living within their borders, enforce policies that are in effect against human rights, and intimidate their population not to challenge the CCP.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/wo ... 2012-china

Against a backdrop of rapid socio-economic change and modernization, China continues to be an authoritarian one-party state that imposes sharp curbs on freedom of expression, association, and religion; openly rejects judicial independence and press freedom; and arbitrarily restricts and suppresses human rights defenders and organizations, often through extra-judicial measures.

The government also censors the internet; maintains highly repressive policies in ethnic minority areas such as Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia; systematically condones—with rare exceptions—abuses of power in the name of “social stability” ; and rejects domestic and international scrutiny of its human rights record as attempts to destabilize and impose “Western values” on the country. The security apparatus—hostile to liberalization and legal reform—seems to have steadily increased its power since the 2008 Beijing Olympics. China’s “social stability maintenance” expenses are now larger than its defense budget.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:42 pm

It is without doubt, not paranoia.

And there are Chinese spies who read Dharma Wheel, you can count on it.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:26 pm

conebeckham wrote:It is without doubt, not paranoia.

And there are Chinese spies who read Dharma Wheel, you can count on it.


I'll admit the Chinese government isn't my favorite government but I highly doubt they care about just one forum.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:45 pm

Who said anything about "just one forum?"

They're reading more than just one forum, for sure. But anything relating to Tibet is sure to get reviewed by PRC. No doubt about it.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:46 pm

Red Faced Buddha wrote:
conebeckham wrote:It is without doubt, not paranoia.

And there are Chinese spies who read Dharma Wheel, you can count on it.


I'll admit the Chinese government isn't my favorite government but I highly doubt they care about just one forum.




They do, they do, they never overlook even tiniest bit of anything :)

Moreover Chinese espionage system is one of the oldest in the world, and very very good one... learn the history. I had open meeting with some from the embassy.. they were introduced to me by one of their counterparts as ''mr. spy''.. they only laughed and it was really funny...
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:53 pm

Matylda wrote:
Red Faced Buddha wrote:
conebeckham wrote:It is without doubt, not paranoia.

And there are Chinese spies who read Dharma Wheel, you can count on it.


I'll admit the Chinese government isn't my favorite government but I highly doubt they care about just one forum.




They do, they do, they never overlook even tiniest bit of anything :)

Moreover Chinese espionage system is one of the oldest in the world, and very very good one... learn the history. I had open meeting with some from the embassy.. they were introduced to me by one of their counterparts as ''mr. spy''.. they only laughed and it was really funny...


You're right.I've read a little about (Ancient)Chinese warfare so I know they have had an incredible espionage system even thousands and thousands of years ago.
But my point being,the Chinese government probably doesn't care what us Europeans and Americans say.Maybe what Chinese people say or write on here,although I assume they would never be able to find Dharma Wheel on a Chinese search engine in the first place.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Caz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39 pm

What would they have to spy about on here surely your all more interested in Dharma then Politics ? :sage:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:21 pm

Red Faced Buddha wrote:But my point being,the Chinese government probably doesn't care what us Europeans and Americans say.Maybe what Chinese people say or write on here,although I assume they would never be able to find Dharma Wheel on a Chinese search engine in the first place.


Well I have to say opposite... they really care what you Europeans r Americans say, think and feel... and they are penetrating much more then you think.

And better do not underestimate Chinese... they have extremely well educated personnel, educated at your European and American universities etc. etc.

China is a real power... not a paper tiger.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Matylda » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:24 pm

Caz wrote:What would they have to spy about on here surely your all more interested in Dharma then Politics ? :sage:


Westerner may think so, due to idealistic not realistic view on Buddhism or dharma... but Asian would not think so.. it is part of our political history. It is same like catholic church and politics in Europe or some other countries.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:29 am

Matylda wrote:
Caz wrote:What would they have to spy about on here surely your all more interested in Dharma then Politics ? :sage:


Westerner may think so, due to idealistic not realistic view on Buddhism or dharma... but Asian would not think so.. it is part of our political history. It is same like catholic church and politics in Europe or some other countries.


Politics is often the poison of religion. Its very sad especially for Tibetans.

But what more can you expect of Samsara ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:59 am

Caz-
I think the word "Politics" can mean many things....in it's purest form, it describes the relations between persons or groups of persons, though we use it these days to mean, mainly, the practice or profession of governance of nations.

I think that politics is inevitable in religion, because "religion" is an institution and all human institutions are comprised of people and their relations. Not only that, but politics can also be said to deal specifically with power and authority, control. It takes no imagination to understand the relevance of "politics" of this sort, in any institutionalized religion. In simplest form, the Guru/Disciple relationship can be said to be a political one.

In fact, the creation of "new" organizations, from bifurcations or differences of doctrine, belief, or practice, is a political maneuver. You should know, and understand, this, in your own organization.

Having said that, I'm a firm believer in the Seperation of Church and State, both here in the US, and as an ideal throughout the world, and I am happy, and guardedly optimistic, to see Tibetans In Exile move away from a quasi-feudal "Dharma-cracy" to a representative Democracy. Nonetheless, political forces will continue to operate in the institutions of Tibetan religions, just as they do in all institutions.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Silent Bob » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:57 am

Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Sheila » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:21 am

Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


The ones on YouTube snapped long ago, lol. I think their DNA has actually started to merge with the 'Tube. The Shugden gang held out longest, but they (she) finally gave up having animated conversations with herself.

Edit: By Shugden gang, I mean those Chinese posing as Shugden propitiates.
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:50 am

Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


Indeed. What a crap job that would be. We're pretty boring, frankly. :smile:
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:23 am

conebeckham wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


Indeed. What a crap job that would be. We're pretty boring, frankly. :smile:


And we like it that way. :smile:
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Regarding Chinese spies

Postby heart » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:22 am

Silent Bob wrote:Reading this thread, my heart goes out to the hapless, low-on-the-food chain Chinese intel operative who is tasked with monitoring Dharma Wheel for anything of potential significance. I had a comparable job combing through and "gisting" transcripts of Radio Peking and Radio Pyongyang broadcasts during the 60's and the endless day after day tedium nearly drove me to drink.

Peace out,
Chris


:smile: don't you think we have a little more drama than Radio Peking?

/magnus
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