popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:21 pm

pemachophel wrote:The overwhelming majority of terma practiced today within the Nyingma (and Kagyud) come from the Wisdom Mind of Guru Rinpoche and were hidden to be specifically revealed at certain times and places when those particular practices would be most needed and effective. So if most modern terma Dzogchen cycles include a goodly proportion of Mahayoga practices, seems to me that Guru Rinpoche intended it that way and for a reason. IOW, He must've thought these practices would be needed in our time and place. Just a thought.

:namaste:


A good thought I think, and if "pure Dzogchen" termas appear, as it seems there might be, that is also fine.

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:22 pm

I agree, Magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Pero » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:29 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:self-empowerment is a practice just like tsog
Is it for example for HYT not far more than as ordinary tsog?


I don't know anything about HYT I been practicing in the Chokling Tersar tradition for a long time now. Self-empowerment is a part of the the Dzogchen cycle I practice. I am not sure how important it is and what I use when doing tsog, mending and purification is just a few lines in the text, but it is undoubtedly there.

You mentioned Zhitro Khorde Rangdrol (a terma by Changchub Dorje recently transmitted by ChNNR). Some people would call that a Dzogchen sadhana but ChNNR call it a Anuyoga sadhana. This is a special kind of distinction that he make that generate quite a lot of discussion in this and other forums.

How does anuyoga look like for other teachers?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:42 pm

Mariusz-
I don't think "Rigdzin Dupa" is anuyoga, per se. There may be "anuyoga" explanations of it, or means of approaching it that way--from my experience, it seems to have the hallmarks of a Mahayoga practice explicit in the sadhana itself.

The quote from Von Schaik is interesting, but wasn't Lama Gongdu a much earlier terma cycle? And even earlier, Nyang Ral Nyima Ozer? The texts I've seen from both of these tertons seem very much like Mahayoga-style practices, to me......but what do I know?

I don't know if Dzogchen practice "requires self-initiation," that's not for me to say, but it seems clear that, early on, sadhanas that likely included self-initiation sequences (and tsoks, and things like Protection Circles, and Torma Offerings, and various other techniques) were quite prevalent in Nyingma.

In fact, the whole history of Anuyoga, and the Gongpa Dupa Do, is really quite fascinating, and almost appears to be a bridge between the unfabricated, unelaborated "practices of Ati" and the elaborate, liturgically-based practices of Mahayoga. I know "Anuyoga" is usually presented as a sort of "instant generation, with emphasis on body mandala and especially subtle body/completion stage with characteristics" techniques, but I think going back to the source texts, and the history, provides an added dimension and appreciation of the whole 9-yana scheme in general, and of the 3 Inner Yanas, especially.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:03 pm

Could you give some sources where we could learn a little bit about the history and source texts of Anuyoga? Is there anything in English?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:05 pm

heart wrote:I don't know anything about HYT I been practicing in the Chokling Tersar tradition for a long time now. Self-empowerment is a part of the the Dzogchen cycle I practice. I am not sure how important it is and what I use when doing tsog, mending and purification is just a few lines in the text, but it is undoubtedly there
Kunga has already mentioned "in Sakya we perform self-initiation. Many rely on Vajrayogini twice a month to fully restore all samayas and vows but the counting retreat (400,000 mantras) and fire puja has to have been completed previously". As I know this very high advanced HYT "tool" can restore all downfalls of HYT, even those Avici-hell heavy, and it does not require one's own lama be present like in ordinary tsog "the best quality". If it is not so please correct me. I really don't know if Mahayoga is exactly the same, and moreover Anuyoga, which has the instant generation difference, needs similar things to do before, as Kunga mentioned for HYT. Do you still think ordinary tsog is adequate substitute for it in Inner Tantras?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby ngodrup » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:54 am

The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its Fundamentals and History
by Dudjom Rinpoche
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Yudron » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:36 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:Could you give some sources where we could learn a little bit about the history and source texts of Anuyoga? Is there anything in English?


Dudjom Rinpoche's History of the Nyingma. To understand that chapter I needed to read Jacob Dalton's doctoral dissertation on the gongs pa du pa'i do [The Sutra that Gathers all Intentions] -- which I don't have hand at the moment to do a complete citation for.

Then, after all that you will still have unanswered questions.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby CrawfordHollow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:52 am

I just downloaded Dalton's work per suggestion of Cone. Have you read it?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Yudron » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:02 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:I just downloaded Dalton's work per suggestion of Cone. Have you read it?


I skimmed it and made a little outline for myself. I'm going to go back and read it in depth now. It goes without saying that he is a western scholar and not bound to solely a religious view of history.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:08 am

Pero wrote:How does anuyoga look like for other teachers?


Other teachers always refer to Anuyoga as specializing in the second and third empowerment practices.

An other thing is that for example Tukdrup Barche Kunsel is considered, even in Chokling Tersar, to be Mahayoga. The leyang, the Trinely Nyingpo, have a development stage that is like a fast Mahayoga. However the ghynkher of that same practice, the concise daily practice, use a instant visualization style. Then of course there is a part of the Tukdrup Barche Kunsel that is a pure Dzogchen teaching, Rigdzin Pema Jugne is just a teaching on Trechö and Tögal as well as a teaching on the six liberations, this empowerment is in the Rinchen Terdzö in the Mengakde section of Atiyoga. So just looking just at one single cycle, that is considered Mahayoga, this distinctions between Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga becomes quite difficult to follow.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:17 am

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:I don't know anything about HYT I been practicing in the Chokling Tersar tradition for a long time now. Self-empowerment is a part of the the Dzogchen cycle I practice. I am not sure how important it is and what I use when doing tsog, mending and purification is just a few lines in the text, but it is undoubtedly there
Kunga has already mentioned "in Sakya we perform self-initiation. Many rely on Vajrayogini twice a month to fully restore all samayas and vows but the counting retreat (400,000 mantras) and fire puja has to have been completed previously". As I know this very high advanced HYT "tool" can restore all downfalls of HYT, even those Avici-hell heavy, and it does not require one's own lama be present like in ordinary tsog "the best quality". If it is not so please correct me. I really don't know if Mahayoga is exactly the same, and moreover Anuyoga, which has the instant generation difference, needs similar things to do before, as Kunga mentioned for HYT. Do you still think ordinary tsog is adequate substitute for it in Inner Tantras?


The point was that tsog also repair your samayas and is a ritual coming from Mahayoga, anyway there is nothing "ordinary" about tsog. I don't know so much about self-empowerment and so can't tell you if there is a difference between HYT and Mahayoga self-empowerment. In general I think there is quite a lot of differences between HYT and Mahayoga/Anuyoga/Atiyoga.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:08 am

heart wrote: I don't know so much about self-empowerment and so can't tell you if there is a difference between HYT and Mahayoga self-empowerment. In general I think there is quite a lot of differences between HYT and Mahayoga/Anuyoga/Atiyoga.

/magnus
Yes. So I think in Inner Tantras there is not this "self-initation" which JKhedrup asked for.

BTW. do you know any Mahayoga where during generation stage (kyerim) is used the visualisation in the manner of 8 inner appearances process of dissolution with 4 types of empties including clear light?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:23 am

But ther is no need to be sad - from other POV, in HYT you will never find Dzogchen, contrary to Inner tantras where it is always, as I know :smile:
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:36 am

Many paths to the mountaintop for the ceaseless variety of beings :namaste:

I was just curious if the ritual was something universal. I was quite surprised at how many people at the centre here were involved in the Yamantaka self-initiation, because it is a quite a complex and demanding ritual with lots of set-up involved and a steep learning curve. Of course, it also requires having completed a retreat and fire puja.

The senior translator has been here for 25 years, and translated the ritual into Dutch which is quite impressive. So myself and 2-3 Geshes drone along in Tibetan while the umdzey leads in their language (and can follow a bit in Tibetan) at the same time. It seems to work fairly well, though sometimes in Tibetan we finish a section first because the language is more concise.
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Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:47 am

JKhedrup wrote:Many paths to the mountaintop for the ceaseless variety of beings :namaste:

I was just curious if the ritual was something universal. I was quite surprised at how many people at the centre here were involved in the Yamantaka self-initiation, because it is a quite a complex and demanding ritual with lots of set-up involved and a steep learning curve. Of course, it also requires having completed a retreat and fire puja.

The senior translator has been here for 25 years, and translated the ritual into Dutch which is quite impressive. So myself and 2-3 Geshes drone along in Tibetan while the umdzey leads in their language (and can follow a bit in Tibetan) at the same time. It seems to work fairly well, though sometimes in Tibetan we finish a section first because the language is more concise.

Yes, Yamantaka practise from Tsongkhapa is very beautiful, unique, having the most "tools" of generation and completion stages, including those from Father and Mother Classes, peaceful and wrathful aspects, the most elaborated protection wheel... perhaps the most complex among all HYT practices ever :smile:
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:35 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote: I don't know so much about self-empowerment and so can't tell you if there is a difference between HYT and Mahayoga self-empowerment. In general I think there is quite a lot of differences between HYT and Mahayoga/Anuyoga/Atiyoga.

/magnus
Yes. So I think in Inner Tantras there is not this "self-initation" which JKhedrup asked for.



I am afraid you don't read or don't understand my posts. I and others told you numerous times that there is self-initiation in terma cycles that cover the inner tantras.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Sherlock » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:15 pm

This might be out-of-topic but ChNN's definition of anuyoga as involving instant generation (as well as the same view of the basis as Dzogchen/atiyoga proper) is explained in the Kunjed Gyalpo and probably as well as in other root texts of Dzogchen.

There are four subdivisions of anuyoga according to the KG (based on Jim Valby's translation, paraphrased):

1) sattvayoga-anuyoga. Practitioners at this level don't go through gradual visualization of themselves as the yidam but consider that all phenomena are already perfected, without any impurity, in their three mandalas

2) mahayoga-anuyoga. Practitioners at this level generate the father and mother deities as above, but just recite the mantra, which is the essence of the deity, instead of relying on method and prajna of the father and mother.

3) anuyoga-anuyoga. Practitioners at this level rely upon practices of channels and prana and function in the dimension of the real condition where all impure manifestations are recognised to be devoid of self-nature.

4) atiyoga-anuyoga. Practitioners of this level see all phenomena, however they manifest as the indivisible cause of space and the effect of wisdom.

I hope it is alright to post this here. I'd like to request that no-one quote this post in case I need to delete the contents.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:28 pm

Mariusz wrote:Yes, Yamantaka practise from Tsongkhapa is very beautiful, unique, having the most "tools" of generation and completion stages, including those from Father and Mother Classes, peaceful and wrathful aspects, the most elaborated protection wheel... perhaps the most complex among all HYT practices ever :smile:


Check out the Full-On Kalachakra some time. Or the Drupcho of Shangpa Gyu De Lha Nga by Taranatha. The latter one is petty complex, I think....it includes the elaborated protection wheel of Yamantaka, and the whole 13 deity Yamantaka mandala--but that's just a part of it.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Pero » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:36 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:How does anuyoga look like for other teachers?


Other teachers always refer to Anuyoga as specializing in the second and third empowerment practices.

An other thing is that for example Tukdrup Barche Kunsel is considered, even in Chokling Tersar, to be Mahayoga. The leyang, the Trinely Nyingpo, have a development stage that is like a fast Mahayoga. However the ghynkher of that same practice, the concise daily practice, use a instant visualization style. Then of course there is a part of the Tukdrup Barche Kunsel that is a pure Dzogchen teaching, Rigdzin Pema Jugne is just a teaching on Trechö and Tögal as well as a teaching on the six liberations, this empowerment is in the Rinchen Terdzö in the Mengakde section of Atiyoga. So just looking just at one single cycle, that is considered Mahayoga, this distinctions between Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga becomes quite difficult to follow.

/magnus

So the practices we do in DC that we consider anuyoga other teachers would consider as atiyoga (like you mentioned the Shitro Khorde Rangdrol)? Is there nothing that other teachers would think of as anuyoga in DC (the only deity practices we have with tsalung, as far as I know, are Mandarava, Vajrapani and Sinhamukha and the latter two have not been taught in my time or perhaps at all)?

It seems a bit confusing to me hehe. When I received Thugje Chenpo Munsel Dronme (Pema Lingpa terma) from Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche, he said that it belongs to the Yangti. But I don't think I can see any big difference between it and the other practices in DC. Unfortunately I didn't remember to ask what exactly makes it Yangti when I had the chance recently.
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