the great vegetarian debate

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Re: No Killing

Postby Bodhi » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:56 am

ronnewmexico wrote:the middle ground is already firmly established and taken in this thing....so you may also hold to it or claim a part to it, but personal understanding or not....it is quite taken(good try though).


I really do not know what you are saying, I didn't claim anything, I just simply stated my belief and understanding. Sorry Ron, I seem to have a huge problem trying to understand you. It feels like when i use google translator to translate foreign language into English text and all I get is a vague idea, but really not clear on it.
Wherever you are, that is where the mind should be. Always be mindful, and be your own master. This is true freedom. - Grand Master Wei Chueh
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Re: No Killing

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:48 am

Well Bodhi

You are claiming the middle ground in this discusion. That is fine to do but first you must show my position as dogmatic or not middle. I contend my position is middle....abortion is harmful negative but circumstances sometimes dictate its employement, thusly it is not always the absolutely worst choice in a spiritual context, bad choice it always is.

So you may add to, as in claiming to be middle, also, but to address me and reference dogmaticism...you must first prove or show such to be so....and then claim middle ground.
To simply address me, make statement and then claim the middle in a discussion..no, sorry things in discussion or debate do not work in that fashion.

To clarify. Prove my position isn't middle by pointing to flaws in my logic and hence the presence of dogmaticism, to simply state such....is not proving point.

So I reject your claim... this, what I support.... is not middle ground and thusly offer counter and await response...
Seems fairly clear.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: No Killing

Postby Bodhi » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:06 am

ronnewmexico wrote:Well Bodhi

You are claiming the middle ground in this discusion. That is fine to do but first you must show my position as dogmatic or not middle. I contend my position is middle....abortion is harmful negative but circumstances sometimes dictate its employement, thusly it is not always the absolutely worst choice in a spiritual context, bad choice it always is.

So you may add to, as in claiming to be middle, also, but to address me and reference dogmaticism...you must first prove or show such to be so....and then claim middle ground.
To simply address me, make statement and then claim the middle in a discussion..no, sorry things in discussion or debate do not work in that fashion.

To clarify. Prove my position isn't middle by pointing to flaws in my logic and hence the presence of dogmaticism, to simply state such....is not proving point.

So I reject your claim... this, what I support.... is not middle ground and thusly offer counter and await response...
Seems fairly clear.


Okay that did not help, it still doesn't make any sense of what you are saying. I didnt have any reference to dogmaticism, and therefore got nothing to prove, overall, even thought I gave a reply to you because you replied to me, it was mainly stating my opinion generally and it is not to argue or debate with you. Even though I didn't understand what you said the whole time in this discussion but I believe your stance on abortion is not much different from me, so I do not understand or know what you are talking about. Maybe you are misunderstanding me. But my point as I had said, to that reply earlier, It wasn't directed toward you AT ALL, it was directed at no one but you gave me a reply as if it was directed to you. So i am not interested at all in a debate with you whatsoever. I think you just misunderstood me or maybe in debate mood and can't clearly see what I am saying. :) So we can end this here, I won't reply anymore, I stated what I believed so Im retrieving from this because I am not interested in a debate as I have said, you can accept it or not, same for everybody.

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Re: No Killing

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:50 am

Well good..... then we agree!!

Have a nice night.
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Vegetarian question

Postby sangyey » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:13 pm

Hi, I just have a quick question I was hoping someone could answer. I've decided to not consume dairy anymore and I was wondering if Tomato Sauce contains any dairy products? Thank you. ~Sangyey
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:32 pm

Most commonly yes, your standard supermartket brand. They add cheese to them and occasionally some have creams.

YOu have to check the label.

Be particularly careful with chips many contain whey which is a dairy product..
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby sangyey » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:39 pm

Hmm, i'm not sure if i would be able to tell from the supermarket brands. For lunch today I used 'Chunky Ragu Garden Combination' with ingredients: Tomato Puree (Water, Tomato Paste), Diced Tomatoes in Puree, Onions, Sugar, Mushrooms, Soybean Oil, Celery, Green Bell Peppers, Carrots, Zucchini, Salt, Spices, Garlic Powder, Natural Flavors.

Would you be able to tell from that?

Thanks for pointing out about the Whey.
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:55 pm

I would wonder about the natural flavors.

I once called a company that was using a natural food additive as a colorant in their salsa....turned out the additive was derived from a particular sort of bug which can be used in that fashion legally.

The big companies except if they have speciality organic or vegetarian brands I would stay away from.

Natural flavors probably includes meat or cheese flavoring. But to be absolutely sure you must call the company, they may tell you or may not.

If it had all that without the natural flavors you'd be allright.

To add..I've done this for 20 plus years so I've seen or researched most of it at some time or other. Some ways of includeing meat and dairy can be quite subtle, and in a unsuspecting fashion. Natural flavors is a very common way. And who would expect dairy in chips....but there it is.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby sangyey » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:21 pm

Will Organic always mean vegetarian?
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:32 pm

you can use vegetarian kimchi for spaghetti sauce instead of tomato sauce...

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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:15 pm

Husang has good advice especially if you live not in the west and want to replicate a western diet.

Organic does not equal vegetarian. But if a major company markets a organic product they are not going to go through the time and effort to determine if a natural flavor is containing organic ingredients(many buy these from flavorant companies). They will use the same flavorant in many many products, and it is hardly if ever organic. A organic flavorant could be manufactured but it is not cost fesible to do so for large companies. So you will generally not find the term natural flavor on a organic product. Of course if you find it you again have to call the company or just not buy it.

But very very rarely do organic products marketed by large companies contain things such as natural flavors.

YOu still have to check the label of a organic product to see if it contains whey, cheese or dairy creams, butter, and some such. But natural flavor you rarely find. Natural flavor you have to assume contains meat or dairy.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby sangyey » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:54 pm

Thank you very much for the information and help.
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby palchi » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:04 pm

Hi sangyey,

you could also just take a tin of whole tomatoes (ingredients: tomatoes, tomato juice and nothing else!), chop them a bit in the tin while you heat a bit of olive oil and a chopped onion, then throw in the tomatoes and add some salt, pepper, and whatever spices or herbs you like (basil, chili, sweet pepper..) - this will take you about two minutes longer than heating up ready made sauce.....

enjoy
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby sangyey » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:16 pm

:thanks:

I also wanted to ask about bread and if there is anything I need to watch out for there?
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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby KeithBC » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:10 pm

Unfortunately, bread is one of the few grocery items that typically does not have an ingredients list. If it is packaged bread from a factory 1000 miles away, it might list the ingredients on the package, but local bakeries often do not. However, if you ask the bakery staff, they will usually be able to give you the list of ingredients.

As always, the thing to watch out for is milk ingredients: whey or casein or butter. There is no reason why they need to be in bread - one can make perfectly good bread without them, but most commercial bread contains at least one of them. Many vegans use bread machines so that they can avoid the milk in commercial breads.

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Re: Vegetarian question

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:56 am

Just to add to the comments about bread. To my knowledge bread's shine may be, as perhaps with french bread or things of that sort.... be a shine produced by coating with egg white.

Bread in supermarkets is a very rough deal for a vegan to my opinion. I gave up years ago and get it only in health food stores, whole foods, places like that. Perhaps it's improved, I last tried about 10 years ago and basically failed to find suitable things.

Supermarkets were actually at one time when fiber was the craze marketing "bread" with wood pulp in it to up the fiber content. I forget how they called it but it certainly was not called sawdust..though that is what it certainly was. Like sugar water sold for years and called apple juice by one large baby food producer(caught and fined a very small amount I think)....there seems no limit to the depths this group will go to reap profit.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: No Killing

Postby Will » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:35 pm

The wheel of life has birth & death as two spokes of the wheel. But it is a wheel, a circle. Conscious life is a continuum, a stream. The body, whether embryo, fetus, baby, child or adult is only one visible effect of a conscious being that is not visible and not physical. Abortion frustrates the free flowing of the stream of life just as completely as murder of an adult body.

Quoting Narada Mahathera: "We are born from the matrix of action (kammayoni). Parents merely provide us with a material layer. Therefore being precedes being. At the moment of conception, it is Kamma that conditions the initial consciousness that vitalizes the foetus." The Mahatanhasamkhaya Sutta mentions three factors are needed for conception: The father & mother, the mother's fertile period & the being-to-be-born.

But how "human" is this being-to-be-born? The Elucidation of Consciousness Sutra says: "When the consciousness leaves the [previous] body it carries all the body's attributes with it. It assumes an [ethereal] form as its body... Because it has the senses, it has feelings and subtle memory and can tell good from evil... Feeling, memory, and good & evil [karmas] go wherever the consciousness-seed goes... It knows that it has left one body to receive another one, knows the good and evil karmas [it has performed], knows that it is accompanied by the karmas, and knows that it will be reincarnated together with the karmas to undergo due karmic results..."

The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."
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Re: No Killing

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:14 am

So then...

"When the consciousness leaves the [previous] body it carries all the body's attributes with it. It assumes an [ethereal] form as its body... Because it has the senses, it has feelings and subtle memory and can tell good from evil... Feeling, memory, and good & evil [karmas] go wherever the consciousness-seed goes... It knows that it has left one body to receive another one, knows the good and evil karmas [it has performed], knows that it is accompanied by the karmas, and knows that it will be reincarnated together with the karmas to undergo due karmic results..."

Animals, prettas, gods demons and all the rest.....do not have this happen?
What form of buddhism is this that distinguishes this thusly?
If this is so such a human only distinction after death by what means does rebirth as other form occur?
Is it then never possible for human to birth as animal nor animal as human or other form?

Or is this distinction...a completely false distinction. And thusly the killing of any sentient being carries negative consequence.

And has HHDL stated abortion must never be performed or is it only a interpretation of what he has stated that is considered to infer other things? Do then there exist no buddhist soldiers, or police or people of those sort that may occasionally have to kill others....well it seems there are.
And has HHDL then as statement infers considers such occupations of necessity unbuddhist...well I find no statements to that effect.
In fact it seems Tibet itself had soldiers of a sort to protect its borders back in the day. Such soldiers were then murders, and the police as well? Why then did they have them in historic Tibet, if all killing of human is considered murder? Certain prohibitions in ancient Tibet did indeed one find....no butchers and several other occupations perhaps....soldiers police....we will not find amongst them.

Interpretations is what I find..... personal interpretations only.

Killing of any sort is of couse certainly a negative thing that will cause negative karmic effect. It is to be greatly avoided. To call all such killings human murder, abortion as well.....inaccurate in all senses of the word.
.
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Re: No Killing

Postby Will » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:41 am

Sutras, suttas & shastras represent accurately what Buddha taught.

The Elucidation Sutra is from the Yogacara school of Buddhism.

The Mahatanhasamkhaya Sutta is from the Theravada school of Buddhism.

The Dalai Lama is of the Madhyamaka/Vajrayana school of Buddhism.
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
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Re: No Killing

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:16 am

Well it seems you answer none of my questions...

I can only assume you hold no answers to any of my questions. As you answered none of my earlier questions posed such as how a rule of law against abortion may be enforced.

So, you claim again abortion is murder, by your interpretation of what constitutes murder and what constitutes your version or interpretation of Buddhism. I say it does not constitute murder as murder is defined legally and buddhism by core tenant holds is some schools such a connotation but in other schools does not. So thusly it cannot be said to be a universal buddhist core belief to consider abortion a act of murder.

So...? ...I have just invalidated your proofs presented in your prior post, invalidate my counter, or show other proof,(with the conclusion I have presented a sucessful counter)....and I will again refute.

Or as in the past....state over and over...abortion is murder, to apparently no purpose.

To put this very very simply....in my last counter I did in no manner shape nor form question the authenticity of the various points of reference you have mentioned (though I still could).
I addressed your interpretations of those points of reference. Thusly your counter, stateing the authenticity of those points of reference, is irrelevent and does not protect point as it was not the focus of challenge.

To counter challenge and protect point, you must address challenge, not some hypothetical challenge or one you may care to have challenged. That's basic debate 101, really simple stuff.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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