popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:56 am

Mariusz wrote:Self-initation for any Nyinthig necessary according to you??? I know for sure when you want practice khandro nyinthig according to Kunzang Gongpa Kundu full cycle of Dzogchen from Pema Lingpa you at least have to receive initially this from the master of Dzogchen: http://yeshekhorlo.mahajana.net/2012/04/29/trekcho-retreat-mit-sh-gangteng-tulku-rinpoche2108-04092012-in-zieleniec-duszniki-zdroj-polen/ Initiation Kün­zang Gongdü (Zhi-Tro) one-day initation. Of course in the future you will receive other initiations when you progress in further retreats, for example Rigpa Tsel Wang. These info are available for everyone from yeshekhorlo internet.


You probably don't know what a self-initiation is Mariusz and for this reason you object. bdag 'jug is a ritual added to the sadhana that you do, it cannot be performed unless you have received the empowerment from your Guru and practiced extensively. Since all (most?) Nyingthig cycles have things like Ngondro and various sadhana's my guess is that the Kunzang Gongpa Kundu also have it and then most certainly have self-initiation practices. You can check with Gangteng Tulku if you doubt me.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:59 am

heart wrote:You probably don't know what a self-initiation is Mariusz and for this reason you object.
I'm very familiar with self-initation from my prior knowledge of Gelug HYT, but I've never met this kind in Nyinthig so far. However HYT it is not strictly the same as Mahayoga as I know, so even here can be a little difference. Nevertheless probably you know Anuyoga or Atiyoga stands-alone and don't need Mahayoga necessary?

heart wrote: bdag 'jug is a ritual added to the sadhana
Perhaps you mean for a sadhana from Anuyoga which is associated with Nyinthig sometimes, for example for the purpose of tsalung and so on?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:20 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote: bdag 'jug is a ritual added to the sadhana
Perhaps you mean for a sadhana from Anuyoga which is associated with Nyinthig sometimes, for example for the purpose of tsalung and so on?


Exactly, now you got it. :smile:

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:25 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote: bdag 'jug is a ritual added to the sadhana
Perhaps you mean for a sadhana from Anuyoga which is associated with Nyinthig sometimes, for example for the purpose of tsalung and so on?


Exactly, now you got it. :smile:

/magnus
and what when there was not a sadhana from Anuyoga in one's complete practice of Dzogchen?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:12 pm

Mariusz wrote:and what when there was not a sadhana from Anuyoga in one's complete practice of Dzogchen?


Can you give me an example of a Nyingthig cycle that don't have Maha or Anu practices that go with it? Normally they all have.

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:39 pm

.
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:and what when there was not a sadhana from Anuyoga in one's complete practice of Dzogchen?


Can you give me an example of a Nyingthig cycle that don't have Maha or Anu practices that go with it? Normally they all have.

/magnus

ok. So we dont know:)
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:46 pm

Mariusz wrote:.
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:and what when there was not a sadhana from Anuyoga in one's complete practice of Dzogchen?


Can you give me an example of a Nyingthig cycle that don't have Maha or Anu practices that go with it? Normally they all have.

/magnus

ok. So we dont know:)


I know about a number of Nyingthig cycles and they all have Maha and Anu in them.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:34 am

heart wrote:
I know about a number of Nyingthig cycles and they all have Maha and Anu in them.

/magnus
Is Shitro initation there a Mahayoga? Take we for example Longchen Nyinthig. Where is there Mahayoga?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Kunga » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:29 am

Hi, yes, in Sakya we perform self-initiation. Many rely on Vajrayogini twice a month to fully restore all samayas and vows but the counting retreat (400,000 mantras) and fire puja has to have been completed previously.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:32 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:
I know about a number of Nyingthig cycles and they all have Maha and Anu in them.

/magnus
Is Shitro initation there a Mahayoga? Take we for example Longchen Nyinthig. Where is there Mahayoga?


Yes, the Shitro mandala is from the most important Mahayoga Tantra, the Guhyagharbha Tantra. One Dzogchen cycle I know quite well contains a Shitro sadhana and a self-empowerment ritual is also included.
The Longchen Nyinthig contains many anu/maha sadhana's http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... n_Nyingtik

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:02 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:
I know about a number of Nyingthig cycles and they all have Maha and Anu in them.

/magnus
Is Shitro initation there a Mahayoga? Take we for example Longchen Nyinthig. Where is there Mahayoga?


Yes, the Shitro mandala is from the most important Mahayoga Tantra, the Guhyagharbha Tantra. One Dzogchen cycle I know quite well contains a Shitro sadhana and a self-empowerment ritual is also included.
The Longchen Nyinthig contains many anu/maha sadhana's http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... n_Nyingtik

/magnus
Hmmm?, some shitros are Anuyoga there (for Nyingthig), for example: This Shitro Khorde Rangdrol practice is quite simple
as well. We apply it according to the system of Anuyoga (according to http://www.dzogchen.it/press/?news_en&n=1339981728_105). Not sure if it is the standart there? You know, in Anuyoga the generation of the mandala is in instant, whatever the deities are described according to Guhyagharbha Tantra or other source.

BTW where is mahayoga in your http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... n_Nyingtik?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:59 pm

Seems pretty obvious:
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said:

The cycle of the Longchen Nyingtik is composed of many sections. It includes the preliminary and main practices, the development and completion stages, and, most important, the practice of Ati Yoga, or Dzogchen. It thus constitutes a complete path to enlightenment.[5]
In the Longchen Nyingtik tradition, the preliminary (or ngöndro) practices are commonly referred to as the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro.

After completing the ngondro, training in the development and completion stages is done through sadhana practices such as Rigdzin Dupa. Traditionally, a student trains in a series of three sadhanas known as the Three Roots.

Finally, if the student is sufficiently prepared, a qualified teacher may give the students instructions in Dzogchen, which focus on the direct realization of the nature of mind.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:08 pm

"It has been said that the Longchen Nyingtig marks a critical point in the merging of the Great Perfection with the rituals of mahayoga, the assumption being that from the fourteenth century onward, Great Perfection cycles came to incorporate more and more mahayoga material, and that this becomes especially apparent with the Longchen Nyingtig. However, treasure collection much earlier than the Longchen Nyingtig can be identified that contain an equal or higher proportion of mahayoga, anuyoga, and general ritual texts than the Longchen Nyingtig... The late additions to the Longchen Nyingtig of the Dechen Gyalmo and Palchen Dupa collections and the Dharma protector texts show Jigme Lingpa rounding out the content of the Longchen Nyingtig later in life, as its popularity grew. The new texts were almost all from the mahayoga rubric. In tipping the balance of the Longchen Nyingtig's content this way, Jigme Lingpa was not moving away from the older models of treasuer collection, but towards their example..." This quote is from Sam Van Schaik's Approaching the Great Perfection. I have only glanced through this book, and I do not practice the Longchen Nyingtig so I am no expert on this subject. I do agree with Magnus that nearly all if not all Dzogchen cycles contain elements of mahayoga. Again, I am no expert, but it seems standard that Dzogchen has always been practiced alongside with the lower Yanas; at least in the terma traditions. The way ChNN presents Dzogchen is unique but does not reflect how it was practiced within Tibetan Buddhism for centuries. I hope this passage adds something relevant to the conversation. Forgive me if I am mistaken, I know next to nothing compared to most others here. Troy
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:41 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:"It has been said that the Longchen Nyingtig marks a critical point in the merging of the Great Perfection with the rituals of mahayoga, the assumption being that from the fourteenth century onward, Great Perfection cycles came to incorporate more and more mahayoga material, and that this becomes especially apparent with the Longchen Nyingtig. However, treasure collection much earlier than the Longchen Nyingtig can be identified that contain an equal or higher proportion of mahayoga, anuyoga, and general ritual texts than the Longchen Nyingtig... The late additions to the Longchen Nyingtig of the Dechen Gyalmo and Palchen Dupa collections and the Dharma protector texts show Jigme Lingpa rounding out the content of the Longchen Nyingtig later in life, as its popularity grew. The new texts were almost all from the mahayoga rubric. In tipping the balance of the Longchen Nyingtig's content this way, Jigme Lingpa was not moving away from the older models of treasuer collection, but towards their example..." This quote is from Sam Van Schaik's Approaching the Great Perfection. I have only glanced through this book, and I do not practice the Longchen Nyingtig so I am no expert on this subject. I do agree with Magnus that nearly all if not all Dzogchen cycles contain elements of mahayoga. Again, I am no expert, but it seems standard that Dzogchen has always been practiced alongside with the lower Yanas; at least in the terma traditions. The way ChNN presents Dzogchen is unique but does not reflect how it was practiced within Tibetan Buddhism for centuries. I hope this passage adds something relevant to the conversation. Forgive me if I am mistaken, I know next to nothing compared to most others here. Troy
So the question is how much is added from Mahayoga rubric neccesary? Is one's complete practice of Dzogchen always impossible without Mahayoga style of "self-initiation"?
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:16 pm

Mariusz wrote:So the question is how much is added from Mahayoga rubric neccesary? Is one's complete practice of Dzogchen always impossible without Mahayoga style of "self-initiation"?


First self-empowerment is a practice just like tsog so your question don't make much sense unless you think that the question: "can you practice Dzogchen without doing tsog?" is relevant. Secondly all Nyingthig cycles contain both Anuyoga and Mahayoga material as far as I know. Do you need to practice the Mahayoga and Anuyoga parts of a Dzogchen cycle? I don't know, ask your Guru. So I am just saying that in Dzogchen cycles there are self-empowerment's I don't have any intention to tell anyone what they have to do, because I just don't know.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby CrawfordHollow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:21 pm

These are questions for the Dzogchen Masters. I would venture to say that the addition of the mahayoga practices within the Dzogchen cycles is to give the student a solid foundation and preperation for Dzogchen. These termas present complete paths to liberation, starting with nogndro, generation stage, and then on to Trekcho and Togal. My guess is that one can indeed practice Dzogchen successfully without the mahayoga practices. But obviously Jigme Lingpa and the other great tertons decided to emphasize mahayoga in their termas for a reason. I don't think that everyone is ready to jump directly into Dzogchen, at least not without some form of preperation first. I am sure that it is possible for some, but not for all. I believe that these cycles were designed to offer a gauranteed and foolproof path to realization. Of course, the approach of ChNN is just as valid and effective; I guess it all comes down to what teachings you have a karmic connection to. Troy
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:50 pm

Excuse me for more questions:
conebeckham wrote:training in the development and completion stages is done through sadhana practices such as Rigdzin Dupa
Is Rigdzin Dupa a sadhana of anuyoga?
heart wrote:self-empowerment is a practice just like tsog
Is it for example for HYT not far more than as ordinary tsog?
heart wrote:to practice the Mahayoga and Anuyoga parts of a Dzogchen cycle? I don't know

Thanx
CrawfordHollow wrote:I don't think that everyone is ready to jump directly into Dzogchen, at least not without some form of preperation first.
Who knows it? Thanx
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:53 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:These are questions for the Dzogchen Masters. I would venture to say that the addition of the mahayoga practices within the Dzogchen cycles is to give the student a solid foundation and preperation for Dzogchen. These termas present complete paths to liberation, starting with nogndro, generation stage, and then on to Trekcho and Togal. My guess is that one can indeed practice Dzogchen successfully without the mahayoga practices. But obviously Jigme Lingpa and the other great tertons decided to emphasize mahayoga in their termas for a reason. I don't think that everyone is ready to jump directly into Dzogchen, at least not without some form of preperation first. I am sure that it is possible for some, but not for all. I believe that these cycles were designed to offer a gauranteed and foolproof path to realization. Of course, the approach of ChNN is just as valid and effective; I guess it all comes down to what teachings you have a karmic connection to. Troy


Well, in my experience, small as it is, it is not just a question of supporting or imposing a gradual path. There is a lot of overlapping that is possible such as Trechö and Tögal practiced directly after a Ngondro session or Trechö and Tögal practiced within a session of a sadhana. Even if you do for example a Rushan retreat you might still do both Ngondro and your sadhana and sang at least a little bit in the morning and maybe some protector practice in the evening as well as chö. Even in a Tögal retreat there could be such instructions. Why? It helps and anyway different masters will give different instructions.

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby pemachophel » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:03 pm

The overwhelming majority of terma practiced today within the Nyingma (and Kagyud) come from the Wisdom Mind of Guru Rinpoche and were hidden to be specifically revealed at certain times and places when those particular practices would be most needed and effective. So if most modern terma Dzogchen cycles include a goodly proportion of Mahayoga practices, seems to me that Guru Rinpoche intended it that way and for a reason. IOW, He must've thought these practices would be needed in our time and place. Just a thought.

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:18 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:self-empowerment is a practice just like tsog
Is it for example for HYT not far more than as ordinary tsog?


I don't know anything about HYT I been practicing in the Chokling Tersar tradition for a long time now. Self-empowerment is a part of the the Dzogchen cycle I practice. I am not sure how important it is and what I use when doing tsog, mending and purification is just a few lines in the text, but it is undoubtedly there.

You mentioned Zhitro Khorde Rangdrol (a terma by Changchub Dorje recently transmitted by ChNNR). Some people would call that a Dzogchen sadhana but ChNNR call it a Anuyoga sadhana. This is a special kind of distinction that he make that generate quite a lot of discussion in this and other forums. I am fine with both denominations and find it very difficult to argue one way or an other in the end I think it comes down to the practitioner, if your view is truly Dzogchen everything you do is Dzogchen. I personally think that Maha, Anu are coming from Ati and so they are very closely related. So closely related in fact that all this fuss is making very little sense.

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