YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:16 pm

By chance I read this last night and thought it relevant. Sutta Nipata 5.6

[The Buddha:]

As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind
goes to an end
that cannot be classified,
so the sage free from naming activity
goes to an end
that cannot be classified.

[Upasiva:]

He who has reached the end:
Does he not exist,
or is he for eternity
free from dis-ease?
Please, sage, declare this to me
as this phenomenon has been known by you.

[The Buddha:]

One who has reached the end
has no criterion
by which anyone would say that —
for him it doesn't exist.
When all phenomena are done away with,
all means of speaking
are done away with as well.
- Peter


User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:13 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Individual » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:44 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby cooran » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Hello all,

Annihilation is the belief that there is a self who is annihilated upon death

and

Eternalism is the belief that is a self who lives forever.

The Buddha taught that there is no self - just kammic accumulations and latent tendencies ... a process.

What is there when the process ceases?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:09 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
Jason
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Jason » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:22 pm

AdvaitaJ,

Yes, but only if you consider Theravada realist.

It has often been asserted that Theravada, particularly "classical" Theravada in which the entire Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative, is ultimately realist. Nevertheless, this criticism, which for the most part comes from Yogacara and Madhyamika, is heavily disputed. For example, in his Introduction to Buddhism, Harvey explains, "'They are dhammas because they uphold their own nature [sabhaava]. They are dhammas because they are upheld by conditions or they are upheld according to their own nature' (Asl.39). Here 'own-nature' would mean characteristic nature, which is not something inherent in a dhamma as a separate ultimate reality, but arise due to the supporting conditions both of other dhammas and previous occurrences of that dhamma. This is of significance as it makes the Mahayana critique of the Sarvastivadin's notion of own-nature largely irrelevant to the Theravada" (87).

Personally, whether or not Harvey is correct in his characterization of the Theravada position, I believe this quasi-realistic view is the result of early Abhidhammikas attempting to reify certain concepts that should never have been reified, e.g. dhammas, khandhas, etc.

In my opinion, the core of texts that constitute the Sutta Pitaka are not realist per se, but there are certain concepts found within Theravada that do appear to present themselves as such. Essentially, I think that classical Theravada, in which the entire Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative, borders on realism depending on how you understand the terms "dhamma" and "sabhava." All I can say is that Theravada does not go as far as Sarvastivada, although it does push the boundaries and can easily be interpreted as being realist, which then opens the door to accusations of nihilism.

In one of the ways that I like to look at it, the conventional viewpoint explains things through subject, verb and object whereas the ultimate viewpoint explains things through verb alone. In essence, things are being viewed from the perspective of activities and processes. This, I think, is incredibly difficult to see, but perhaps what happens here is that once self-identity view (sakkaya-ditthi) is removed, the duality of subject and object is also removed thereby revealing the level of mere conditional phenomena. Nibbana would then be regarded as the end of this conditional phenomena, or in other words, the cessation of the activity of samsara (perpetual wandering).

This is where one can insert any claims of nihilism if one is able to substantiate that this cessation of activity is the destruction of something real, substantial, etc. In other words, if the five aggregates of clinging (khandhas) are real in the sense that they are concrete, existing entities, conditioned or otherwise, then their cessation would be a type of nihilism. In addition, within classical Theravada, the the goal is said to be the utter extinction of all consciousness per the verse in : "Ettha namanca rupanca, asesam uparujjhati. Vinnanassa nirodhena etthetam uparujjhati" (Here [in nibbana], nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here) (Suan Lu Zaw).

The arguments on both sides become very complex and voluminous at this point. For example, there are arguments that claim that everything is an illusion, i.e., perceived reality is ultimately unreal, hence there is no actual cessation; there are arguments that claim the complete cessation of all consciousness is only nihilistic if one takes consciousness as being "me," "mine," or "myself," etc.

For me, "real" simply means an existing cognizable experience. Going back to my statement concerning how I like to look at this, I understand the five aggregates of clinging to represent things that we do as opposed to just things. In other words, there is an act of intention that goes into our experience. In , for example, the Buddha summarizes stress and suffering (dukkha) as the five aggregates of clinging. Furthermore, in the five aggregates of clinging are described in their verb forms, or in other words, not as things but as activities.

Therefore, when looking at the arising of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are effectively looking at the arising of [the activity of] stress and suffering; when looking at the cessation of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are effectively looking at the cessation of [the activity of] stress and suffering. Thus, all that ceases is [the activity of] stress and suffering, not an independently existing entity of any kind. Since this cessation is cognizable, it too can be considered "real." Moreover, since only an activity has been stopped, there is no actual destruction of any "thing."

My view is probably not in line with classical Theravada on this point, however, so please consider my thoughts with that caveat in mind.

Best wishes,

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

(Buddhist-related blog)
(non-Buddhist related blog)

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:44 pm


User avatar
AdvaitaJ
Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby AdvaitaJ » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:55 pm

The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

pt1
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby pt1 » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:56 am

Thanks clw, Ven.Appicchato, Chris, and all for your replies and links. Also, thanks sukhamanveti for explaining the mechanics of your conclusion – that’s what I’ve been really after, and I apologise to all if I have dragged the thread towards the whole issue of self and nihilism and all that - I was really just interested in the mechanics of parinibbana since I think we all agree that arahat has no self anymore to worry about.

I’m still unclear on how is it that an arahat “keeps” nibbana attainment beyond parinibbana in mechanical terms, since my understanding of classical Theravada so far is that nibbana as a dhamma can only be taken up as an object of citta (with help from cetasikas). So after parinibbana, this seems to become impossible, because there’s no more cittas or cetsikas to perform that function. So, I would appreciate if someone can show where and how exactly am I wrong in this understanding.

Once more, this is not to do with annihilationism or eternalism, self and all that, but just how the dhammas work so that nibbana can be “experienced” after parinibbana (if it can be).

Thanks

pt1
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby pt1 » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:04 am


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:42 pm

- Peter


pt1
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby pt1 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:50 am


User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3521
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Huai Bong, Lamphun

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:58 am


User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:45 am

- Peter


User avatar
sukhamanveti
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:33 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby sukhamanveti » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:09 am

Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

User avatar
sukhamanveti
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:33 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby sukhamanveti » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:20 am

Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby nathan » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:48 am

"There is, monks, that base where there is neither earth, nor water,
nor heat, nor air; neither the base of the infinity of space, nor the
base of the infinity of consciousness, nor the base of nothingness,
nor the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this
world nor another world; neither sun nor moon. Here, monks, I say
there is no coming, no going, no standing still; no passing away and
no being reborn. It is not established, not moving, without support.
Just this is the end of suffering."
(Ud 8:1;80)

I like this one drawn from Chris' quotations from previous discussion.

There are many ways this presented more positively. The worldly incline to a view tainted by a sense of self be it gross or subtle which is forever anxious and agitated about it's fate [nail it to the wall and meditate on it I say : ) ]. When this is fully defeated to the root, the inclination is to this other base instead, non-arising. Awakening to an actual non-arising Dhamma; and also, the non-arising of any such of the former inclinations to identify with any arising samsaric conditions as I, me or mine, samsara is emptied of self and so too of suffering thereabouts thereafter. Some go on to say samsara is then also nibbana, say it's 'whatever man', as it is no longer suffering the stain of ongoing kamma making and suffering. Samsara is clearly and fully known and seen for what it is ongoing instead of a sense of lost-ness and loss. Life would linger on but the 'penalty' for living would be gone until even the 'tally' or 'score', the result of a living form is gone. It makes sense but not in the sense of identifying with it either, the path applies at the end as well except that the full application is entirely realized.

Does it continue to be realized? Why not? It has no beginning and no end.
I say go for it, what do we have to loose except our pain and sorrow? It must be wonderful to say the least!
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

pt1
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby pt1 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:27 am


nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby nathan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:16 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:54 am

Dear Pt
You do understand that there are only citta cetasika and rupa, no self. Upon death of the arahat all that remains is the bone fragments, i.e. some rupa.

Thus in no way is there anilhilation as there never was a self, ever.

BTW there are some hilarious things on the internet about people talking with past Buddhas, or searching through relics of monks to find crystals which "show" they were arahats. I used to find these things a bit sad but it is better to enjoy a laugh (albeit rooted in lobha).
Edit to add this links. After writing this post I came across this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1096

robert

Oh I just remembered the best one yet. One article I read claims that an arhats citta or consciousness or whatver is some special type that is unbound and floats around somehow after death, presumably outside of samsara. :rofl: :rofl: Darn now I feel sad again:tantrum:


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: unspoken and 31 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine