So a group united in the same intent, whether good or bad, will get the same karmic effect; only modified to the extent the individual's motive varies somewhat from the group's shared intent.When many persons are united with the intention to kill, either in
war, or in the hunt, or in banditry, who is guilty of murder, if only one of
them kills?
72c-d As soldiers, etc., concur in the realization of the same
effect, all are as guilty as the one who kills.
Having a common goal, all are guilty exactly as he who among them
kills, for all mutually incite one another, not through speech, but by the
very fact that they are united together in order to kill.
But is the person who has been constrained through force to join the
army also guilty?
Evidently so, unless he has formed the resolution, "Even in order to
save my life, I shall not kill a living being."
Collective karma
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Group Karma
Vasubandhu from Abhidharmakosa vol. 2, 649:
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Group Karma
"Oh no, not again!"Will wrote:Vasubandhu from Abhidharmakosa vol. 2, 649:
So a group united in the same intent, whether good or bad, will get the same karmic effect; only modified to the extent the individual's motive varies somewhat from the group's shared intent.When many persons are united with the intention to kill, either in
war, or in the hunt, or in banditry, who is guilty of murder, if only one of
them kills?
72c-d As soldiers, etc., concur in the realization of the same
effect, all are as guilty as the one who kills.
Having a common goal, all are guilty exactly as he who among them
kills, for all mutually incite one another, not through speech, but by the
very fact that they are united together in order to kill.
But is the person who has been constrained through force to join the
army also guilty?
Evidently so, unless he has formed the resolution, "Even in order to
save my life, I shall not kill a living being."
(But recognizing the OP, I clicked on it anyway. Agree with your take on it, but perhaps one could underscore more the fact that they each experience their own results which are similar - you'd be amazed at how many people understand "they will get the same karmic effect" as being "one collective karma that they have to experience at the same time as a group etc...")
And the general who orders the attacks creates karma for each death caused by his soldiers...
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Re: Group Karma
I am not amazed at how people "understand" anything."mudra"Oh no, not again!"
(But recognizing the OP, I clicked on it anyway. Agree with your take on it, but perhaps one could underscore more the fact that they each experience their own results which are similar - you'd be amazed at how many people understand "they will get the same karmic effect" as being "one collective karma that they have to experience at the same time as a group etc...")
And the general who orders the attacks creates karma for each death caused by his soldiers...
But to share the same karmic effect at the same time and place, two or more folk would need to be almost karmic clones of one another. They would have to have, over many lives, very similar karmic patterns of motive, strength, frequency etcetera - not very likely at all.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Group Karma
Would it then not follow that on the reverse if people are united in a benevolent cause, such as saving lives, charitable activities and/or being of benefit to others, then all share in the merit of a single good action by a single individual?
I remember my Tibetan guru talking about this before. We're collectively creating the world we live in through our actions. The example he provided was the locks on a door -- in the beginning you didn't lock your door, then you added one, then two, then three, then an alarm system. I think for him, coming from Tibet and then rural India, the notion of home security was a bit strange. Our collective actions produce a society where people are terrified of being robbed, raped, killed and so on. One secondary result of that is the amount of locks on a door (and the home security systems).
The world as it exists is a result of the collective actions of all beings. It follows that if more and more people have positive thoughts and abandon evil actions, speech and thoughts, then the collective result will reflect that.
I remember my Tibetan guru talking about this before. We're collectively creating the world we live in through our actions. The example he provided was the locks on a door -- in the beginning you didn't lock your door, then you added one, then two, then three, then an alarm system. I think for him, coming from Tibet and then rural India, the notion of home security was a bit strange. Our collective actions produce a society where people are terrified of being robbed, raped, killed and so on. One secondary result of that is the amount of locks on a door (and the home security systems).
The world as it exists is a result of the collective actions of all beings. It follows that if more and more people have positive thoughts and abandon evil actions, speech and thoughts, then the collective result will reflect that.
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Re: Group Karma
Yes indeed, very true! Je Tsongkhapa also mentions one of the best ways to garner merit is to simply admire and agree with any noble deed one hears of. We do not even have to do the act, just cheer on the actor.Huseng wrote:Would it then not follow that on the reverse if people are united in a benevolent cause, such as saving lives, charitable activities and/or being of benefit to others, then all share in the merit of a single good action by a single individual?
[...]
The world as it exists is a result of the collective actions of all beings. It follows that if more and more people have positive thoughts and abandon evil actions, speech and thoughts, then the collective result will reflect that.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Group Karma
There are those who rejoice at the virtuous acts of those less advanced and even get more merit thru their rejoicing than the person who performed it ..Will wrote:Yes indeed, very true! Je Tsongkhapa also mentions one of the best ways to garner merit is to simply admire and agree with any noble deed one hears of. We do not even have to do the act, just cheer on the actor.Huseng wrote:Would it then not follow that on the reverse if people are united in a benevolent cause, such as saving lives, charitable activities and/or being of benefit to others, then all share in the merit of a single good action by a single individual?
[...]
The world as it exists is a result of the collective actions of all beings. It follows that if more and more people have positive thoughts and abandon evil actions, speech and thoughts, then the collective result will reflect that.
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Re: Group Karma
Here is Je Rinpoche on "rejoicing karma" from the Great Lam Rim, (vol. 1:97):
I included the part dealing with confession because he reminds us of the flip side. Rejoicing in another's bad actions, brings that bad karma to us.The nature of sin is that the three mental poisons cause you to use
your body, speech, or mind to actually engage in an activity—that
is, to do it yourself—or to enjoin someone else to do it, or to rejoice
in someone else's having done it. So as to broadly include all of this,
the verse says, "Whatever." To confess sin is to recall the faults of
your earlier sins and then to regret them. Confess them from the
depths of your heart with an attitude of restraint toward future sin.
When you do this, you prevent the growth of the sins you did before
and discontinue committing them in the future.
The next verse expresses the fourth branch of worship, rejoicing:
I rejoice in all merit, whatever it may be,
Of all the conquerors of the ten directions, conqueror's children,
Pratyekabuddhas, those with more to learn,
Those with no more to learn, and all ordinary beings.
"Rejoicing" means to remember the benefits of the virtues of these
... persons, and then to cultivate delight in them as a
poor person would with a discovered treasure.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Group Karma
Seems logical.Will wrote:Vasubandhu from Abhidharmakosa vol. 2, 649:
So a group united in the same intent, whether good or bad, will get the same karmic effect; only modified to the extent the individual's motive varies somewhat from the group's shared intent.When many persons are united with the intention to kill, either in
war, or in the hunt, or in banditry, who is guilty of murder, if only one of
them kills?
72c-d As soldiers, etc., concur in the realization of the same
effect, all are as guilty as the one who kills.
Having a common goal, all are guilty exactly as he who among them
kills, for all mutually incite one another, not through speech, but by the
very fact that they are united together in order to kill.
But is the person who has been constrained through force to join the
army also guilty?
Evidently so, unless he has formed the resolution, "Even in order to
save my life, I shall not kill a living being."
I have learned very similar in the Buddhist University.
Re: Group Karma
That there is a common effect for similar actions is beyond dispute, the teachings of the Buddha on kamma show this very clearly, and that karmic effect is modified by intention, the object that is acted upon (killing an arhat as opposed to killing a mosquito), the quantity and quality of the action and satisfaction gained from an action is also indisputable.
But to say that the karma vipakka will be indentical is going a bit too far.
Okay, the Abhidha...ma texts basically outline the limited range of sentient experience, so it can be said that since we are dealing with such a limited range of experience then the combinations that can occur are also limited and that there is a distinct possibility that the karma vipakka for a group of individuals engaged in the same action may be similar. But I think the term "similar" is of importance here. The abovementioned passages seem to say that the karma vipakka will be the same. This, I feel that this is too far fetched. Why? Because sentient beings have been cycling through samsara forever, so the possibility that their individual mind streams will bring about an identical outcome is kinnda difficult to believe.
If one looks to the Abhidha...ma "lists" one finds a limited but still seemingly vast array of experiences, if one combines these with the structures of dependency outlined in the Patthanuddesa Dipani http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/The_ ... _Relations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; then the possible number combinations shoot right off the end of the scale!
Though I don't find the theory of group karma improbable the lack of references to it in Sutta and Sutra leads me to believe that it is a later development in Buddhist theory which, of course, is not a negative trait but is a point of concern. Maybe the theory requires better elucidation/analysis based on realisations?
But to say that the karma vipakka will be indentical is going a bit too far.
Okay, the Abhidha...ma texts basically outline the limited range of sentient experience, so it can be said that since we are dealing with such a limited range of experience then the combinations that can occur are also limited and that there is a distinct possibility that the karma vipakka for a group of individuals engaged in the same action may be similar. But I think the term "similar" is of importance here. The abovementioned passages seem to say that the karma vipakka will be the same. This, I feel that this is too far fetched. Why? Because sentient beings have been cycling through samsara forever, so the possibility that their individual mind streams will bring about an identical outcome is kinnda difficult to believe.
If one looks to the Abhidha...ma "lists" one finds a limited but still seemingly vast array of experiences, if one combines these with the structures of dependency outlined in the Patthanuddesa Dipani http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/The_ ... _Relations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; then the possible number combinations shoot right off the end of the scale!
Though I don't find the theory of group karma improbable the lack of references to it in Sutta and Sutra leads me to believe that it is a later development in Buddhist theory which, of course, is not a negative trait but is a point of concern. Maybe the theory requires better elucidation/analysis based on realisations?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Group Karma
All the teachings I have received on this subject have included an explanation of 'collective karma' where groups of individuals share the same general experience. For example all those affected by the recent earthquake and tsunami or the Tibetans being invaded and oppressed by the Chinese. For sure individual karma affects each persons specific experience so that some die, some don't and so forth but why does something like that happen to a group, tribe, family or whatever? Collective karma.
Re: Group Karma
Being mindful everyone may experience "group karma" in one's own sphere. It is the way of perceiving and fabricating what arises. Education, school, media ... being member of this or that group ... just watching one's habits and challenge these can reveal the being conditioned by the karma of other individuals and the absorption of habits that are more or less dominant in the collective one is born into and the sub-collective(s) one "chooses" (?!) to associate with.
Mindfulness on the other hand is the way to become independent of "collective" karma in the same way it is a method to stop the workings of one's individual karma. Actually the borderline between "collective" karma and "individual" karma cannot be drawn. Why? Neither can be identified as such.
kind regards
Mindfulness on the other hand is the way to become independent of "collective" karma in the same way it is a method to stop the workings of one's individual karma. Actually the borderline between "collective" karma and "individual" karma cannot be drawn. Why? Neither can be identified as such.
kind regards
Re: Group Karma
That is actually a good point, ideas of collective and individual do arise from a false sense of dualism between "myself" and "others", but at the same time the Pali Canon Sutta on kamma are quite clear about the individualised nature of kamma and its effects.TMingyur wrote:Actually the borderline between "collective" karma and "individual" karma cannot be drawn. Why? Neither can be identified as such.
Maybe what is necessary here (as everywhere else) is the fine balancing act between extremes? In this case those of individual vs collective?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Group Karma
Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw gives me a new way to look at the group karmic effect notion:
What do you think of this "overflow" idea of vipaka, resulting from the "power or heat" of actions?
Again, the result of kamma is taken to be twofold: as drifting, affecting the individual, and as overflowing, affecting others. Of these the former implies prosperity, or adversity experienced by a man in this or that existence as an individual being, in consequence of his meritorious or demeritorious deeds. Under this aspect the result of kamma affects the doer of the deed only. But in his existence as an individual being, owing to the heat and power of his kamma promoting his happiness, or causing him misery, there arise conditions of prosperity, or adversely, with respect to persons other than himself. This is called the overflow of the result of kamma. Under this aspect the result of his kamma is shared by others.
The drifting course of the result of kamma may be illustrated by the prosperity of King Mahasudassana's life in the Mahasudassana-sutta.[52]
Moreover, owing to the power of the meritorious deeds of the king, various conditions of prosperity in the lives of other persons arose, some together with his own condition, some coming from this or that source. This may be taken as an illustration of the overflowing course of the result of kamma. It may even promote the happiness of the inhabitants of other continents.[53]
As regards evil deeds, the story in which the whole kingdom was ruined in consequence of the overflowing course of King Nalikera's act, persecuting five hundred sages,[54] and such other stories may be related.
Again, it is written: 'A person, Bhikkhus, may be so born as to promote the well-being of many men, the happiness of many men, the interests of many men, the well-being and happiness of many gods and men. A person, Bhikkhus, may be so born as to increase the ill of many men, the misery of many men, the ruin of many men, the ill and misery of many gods and men.'[55]
It not only affects beings, animals as well as men, but it also permeates the realm of space, and the whole organic world. Thus we read in our texts:
'It is,the rule, Bhikkhus, that when the Bodhisatta, having
fallen from the Tusita-heaven, enters his mother's womb, then
there appears throughout this world including the celestial
worlds, an infinitely splendid radiance surpassing in splendour
the divine radiance of gods, and then the ten thousand
world-systems tremble, shake and quake.[56] Such is the
overflowing result of a Bodhisatta's acts of fulfilling many
perfections.
When men become exceedingly sinful in thought and deed, all the overflowing course of their kamma rushes from this extensive earth up to the orbits of moon, sun and stars, agonising even the whole realm of space, and the whole organic world of trees, etc., undermining by degrees the cause of prosperity and strengthening that of adversity.
What do you think of this "overflow" idea of vipaka, resulting from the "power or heat" of actions?
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Group Karma
It seems to me that what he is talking about is not an "overflow" of the outcome but the outcome acting on the individuals mindstream in such a way as that it acts as a cause for (or colours) their next action.
Like, for example, as a consequence of a former action a negative outcome manifests which "causes" me to get angry and thus act in a negative manner again, thus being a cause for the suffering of others. Or another example may be: the outcome of a meritorious act is that I gain material wealth and then I use this material wealth for the benefit of others. The others are benefiting from my action of donation which, the consequence of previous merit, allows me the capacity of benefiting others. ie They benefit from my action . I could have had a positive outcome (gaining wealth) but act greedily and hoard it. The outcome of the previous merit is manifest (wealth) but my actions do not allow others to benefit from it. I could have negative outcomes, but choose to deal with them personally (overcome their effect on my mindstream) and thus not affect those around me negatively.
Like, for example, as a consequence of a former action a negative outcome manifests which "causes" me to get angry and thus act in a negative manner again, thus being a cause for the suffering of others. Or another example may be: the outcome of a meritorious act is that I gain material wealth and then I use this material wealth for the benefit of others. The others are benefiting from my action of donation which, the consequence of previous merit, allows me the capacity of benefiting others. ie They benefit from my action . I could have had a positive outcome (gaining wealth) but act greedily and hoard it. The outcome of the previous merit is manifest (wealth) but my actions do not allow others to benefit from it. I could have negative outcomes, but choose to deal with them personally (overcome their effect on my mindstream) and thus not affect those around me negatively.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Group Karma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experimentWill wrote:Vasubandhu from Abhidharmakosa vol. 2, 649:
So a group united in the same intent, whether good or bad, will get the same karmic effect; only modified to the extent the individual's motive varies somewhat from the group's shared intent.When many persons are united with the intention to kill, either in
war, or in the hunt, or in banditry, who is guilty of murder, if only one of
them kills?
72c-d As soldiers, etc., concur in the realization of the same
effect, all are as guilty as the one who kills.
Having a common goal, all are guilty exactly as he who among them
kills, for all mutually incite one another, not through speech, but by the
very fact that they are united together in order to kill.
But is the person who has been constrained through force to join the
army also guilty?
Evidently so, unless he has formed the resolution, "Even in order to
save my life, I shall not kill a living being."
Basically with an authority figure and obedient peers present people will do anything. Without them present not usually. So Vasubandhu is right.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Collective karma
Is there any historical or sutric basis for such a concept or is it merely a figment of modern syncretic blending of religious ideas?
with love,
Lotwell
with love,
Lotwell
Re: Collective karma
Vasubandhu:
Vasubandhu, Abhidharma-kośa-bhāsya. Vol. 1. Translated into French by Louis de La Vallee Poussin, English translation by Leo M. Pruden (Berkeley, CA: Asian Humanities Press, 1991), 649.When many persons are united with the intention to kill, either in war, or in the hunt, or in banditry, who is guilty of murder, if only one of them kills?
As soldiers, etc., concur in the realization of the same effect, all are as guilty as the one who kills.
Having a common goal, all are guilty exactly as he who among them kills, for all mutually incite one another, not through speech, but by the very fact that they are united together in order to kill.
But is the person who has been constrained through force to join the army also guilty?
Evidently so, unless he has formed the resolution, "Even in order to save my life, I shall not kill a living being."
Re: Collective karma
It has been an aspect of Buddhist thought since the beginning. In the Pali canon the Buddha does explain that low or high status, good or bad health etc are all due to karma. The Abhidharma explains that all sense-consciousnesses are Vipaka (karmic reaction). This leads to the conclusion that all the 32 planes of existence show themselves thru typical setups of kalapas (dharmic molecules) which are again brought forth through the karmic dynamics of the individual mindstreams which we usually call "beings". In other words collective karma arises where several beings have reactive karma which is alike.lotwell wrote:Is there any historical or sutric basis for such a concept or is it merely a figment of modern syncretic blending of religious ideas?
with love,
Lotwell
The term "collective karma" itself is not found in the old texts tho.
Re: Collective karma
The term collective karma is found in the 100 000 Songs of Milarepa, when Milarepa is discussing with an indian yogi the difference between tibetan and indian collective karma. I don't know the corresponding tibetan word, the idea seems to exist in older buddhist sources too. It is a sensitive question, you would have to define it more accurately: what is collective karma?
There certainly are basic tendencies that you will have because you have been born and educated in Africa, in America, or in Europe. These are a result of common values and common habitual views and national customs. They become so inbred that you are hardly even conscious of them. Presumably you didn't have them before your birth into that particular life, so what are they? Collective karmic patterns, maybe? Or did you take birth there because you already had some of them? As a not-yet-manifest habitual tendency.
And: is there karma that is a result of collective action, like what a whole nation does? There are examples of collective action in Jataka Tales, and the collective results of these actions.
There certainly are basic tendencies that you will have because you have been born and educated in Africa, in America, or in Europe. These are a result of common values and common habitual views and national customs. They become so inbred that you are hardly even conscious of them. Presumably you didn't have them before your birth into that particular life, so what are they? Collective karmic patterns, maybe? Or did you take birth there because you already had some of them? As a not-yet-manifest habitual tendency.
And: is there karma that is a result of collective action, like what a whole nation does? There are examples of collective action in Jataka Tales, and the collective results of these actions.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Collective karma
Karma is individual and personal. However, several people can perform similar actions with similar motivations and therefore experience similar consequences (perhaps in a single event). "Collective karma" is simply a somewhat misleading term for these similarities. It does not mean that there is some causal connection, or that my action causes your consequence.
Om mani padme hum
Keith
Om mani padme hum
Keith