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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:29 am 
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@ReasonAndRhyme:
I did not name anyone in my last two posts. I addressed your error in misreading & misunderstanding basic communication, posts or the book I quoted here first & it's references. You do not mention your accusation which I proved false. But continue to question me in a hostile tone. I will ignore your questions from now on as a result of this behavior as well as not seeing logic nor style in your comments. Good luck to you.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:07 am 
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username wrote:
@ReasonAndRhyme:
I did not name anyone in my last two posts. I addressed your error in misreading & misunderstanding basic communication, posts or the book I quoted here first & it's references. You do not mention your accusation which I proved false. But continue to question me in a hostile tone. I will ignore your questions from now on as a result of this behavior as well as not seeing logic nor style in your comments. Good luck to you.



my hostile tone? :jumping:

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"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:13 am 
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Shakyamuni said as you bite into gold check my teachings for yourself first without taking my word for it. In Vajrayana taking a root guru is much more serious. Also as the metaphor of a snake in the bamboo shows, one either goes up fast or down in Vajrayana. This is no joke or trivial matter as someone might say here. If someone, like a few teachers in the past from other traditions, is asking for regular standing order financial deductions and threatens damnation if you stop your bank doing so, then this is not breakage of samaya but cultist abuse. The norm in Nyingma has been to be able to take on multiple gurus. They might allow this for lower ranks in such setups but not on certain matters for higher up more secret ranks under financial abuse as far as certain commitments are concerned. So ask for advice from a genuine Tibetan or western lama by any means of communication. My only concern here from page one has been people lured into various webs.

If a fake terton is making up new deities from the composite of various deities and/or animals and/or symbols and declares them as novel deities and terma and stipulates them to his paying regular clients as a practice in a false non historic lineage, then he is attacking the core of vajrayana by making up such false deities whose iconography we can see on the web these days. This outrage will not stand. The fact that one is then immediately attacked here for daring to defend the basic tenets of Vajrayana and Terma traditions is utterly unbelievable.

If someone has committed ALL the following major attacks on Vajrayana and Terma traditions, then you should avoid that fake terton:
Quote:
1- Tell some people they are not tertons. But tell others they are tertons as we see by themselves openly as well as their aides.

2- Make up funny combination deities and fake tantric figures corrupting vajrayana as prophesied by Padmasambhava for the degenerate age by the worst spirits around.

3- Who break samaya with great gurus that they use for publicity and fund raising in order to buy property in various continents for themselves.

4- Who were banished by those dead gurus that initially hoped to correct them, that now they use for publicity, who told them to stop their teachings and false claims before being banished.

5- Who make up fake lineages that no lama or academic accepts as real.


I will respond to this major attack by such extended mandala, and it's various level defenders, on Vajrayana and Terma tradition not here but elsewhere on the web by various freedom of expression based methods and means on a sustained basis. In the meantime if you are in any spiritual setup, Terma or Vajrayana or even lower yanas, and are being threatened by accusations of samaya breakage into regular financial deductions then you need to save your precious human life and get back to the path and document and record as much as you can before you leave. And make sure you do your best to save other victims too. This does not only apply to people doing this in the name of Buddhism but any other religious or spiritual excuse. As far as the dharma is concerned the best way to salvation is through the genuine gurus of the authentic lineages of Guru Rinpoche. In the meantime praying to him directly from the heart as refuge is a good first step.

_________________
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:35 am 
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Hello, Dharma Wheel

Looking at this forum for the first time I am saddened to see that people are still rehashing misinformation about Ngak'chang Rinpoche (Ngakpa Chögyam) & the Aro gTér that originated on e-Sangha. If anyone is interested in hearing the other side of the story you might like to look at the website http://www.approachingaro.org, in particular the part about authorization (http://approachingaro.org/authorized).

Back in the days of e-Sangha it was not possible for anyone to post information in support of the Aro gTér. People were banned for trying & had their posts deleted, so many people may be unaware of this website.


Shardröl

Full disclosure: I am a student of Ngak'chang Rinpoche & Khandro Déchen, the Lineage-holders of the Aro gTér Lineage, & have been for over 20 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:16 am 
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Tibetan Buddhist lineages are based on transmission from authentic lineage masters. How can you trust a lineage which is based on a fraud ? Aro Lingma has never existed. The whole thing is spurious and has been invented by Chogyam. Swallow it and move on to an original lineage. Had he not invented that woman founder, his teachings might be credible but the whole history behind this Aro lineage is a hoax.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I thought that perhaps I should respond to the following because I actually had the opportunity to do as username suggested when I was in Nepal, here's the quote:

Quote:
Their followers can travel to India & Nepal and verify for themselves, despite the numerous false PR online, from the loved ones of Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche & recently before he passed away Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche if the fellow was often told to stop & failing those warnings then banished, or not, for themselves. I will not name any one else or have anything else to say nor feel compelled to persuade any adult who should according to vajrayana investigate thoroughly before committing.


Myself and other apprentices from the Aro gTér tradition were fortunate to have an audience with Jomo Sam'phel Dechen, the consort of Künzang Dorje Rinpoche, in December of 2011. For those of you who don't know who Jomo Sam'phel Dechen is I can relate the following. Firstly Künzang Dorje Rinpoche had said in the past that his consort's realisation is equal to his own, and, after the parinirvana of Künzang Dorje Rinpoche Jomo Sam'phel Dechen asked Trul'shik Rinpoche for practice instructions and he told her to simply continue as she was because her practise was of such a high level that he had no advice for her. Anyway, when we asked her for practise advice she simply told us (through a translator who was a disciple of Künzang Rinpoche) that "following Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teachings, this is good", and "keep good relations with Ngak'chang Rinpoche's disciples, in order not to damage samaya. This is important."

I guess folks can make of that what they will. Perhaps it is relevant that Jomo Sam'phel Dechen referred to our teacher as Ngak'chang Rinpoche and that in mentioning samaya damage acknowledged the veracity of our tantric bond with one another, perhaps not. Either way I think it is nice that I had the chance to take the discussion off an internet forum and into the world, as it were, and that when I did investigate I found encouragement and not concern.

All the best,
Alex.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Coming back to the original post, what do folks here know about Pegyal Lingpa, who I believe was a modern day Terton from Bhutan. His lineage and teachings are carried on by Tsewong Sitar Rinpoche n uSA.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Location: Lafayette, CO
Pedgyal Lingpa was not from Bhutan. He was a Tibetan who left Tibet with the diaspora. However, He lived mainly in Bhutan and most of His disciples live there too. He revealed both sa-ter and gong-ter. Besides Tsewong Sithar Rinpoche, Tulku Sang-gnak holds Pedgyal Lingpa's terma and propagates them here in the U.S. Tulku Sang-ngak is the Dorje Loppon for the annual Pema Sangwai Thigle (a.k.a. Red Vajrasattva) drubchen held at Rigdzin Ling (Chagdud Gompa) in northern California. Chagdud Rinpoche was the ter-dak of Pedgyal Lingpa's Kusum Gongdu. The Kusum Gongdu was revealed in Bhutan. Pedgyal Lingpa's gong-ter (mind terma) were revealed in Tibet. Almost all of these were lost during the suppression of Dharma in Tibet. However, Tulku Sang-gnak recently transmitted a Guru Drakpo gong-ter that Pedgyal Lingpa revealed in Tibet. It combines Guru Drakpo with Dorje Phurba. Pedgyal Lingpa was an emanation of Nub Sangay Yeshe.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Alex Hubbard wrote:
I guess folks can make of that what they will.

Sure, adding hoax to another hoax does not change anything to the fact that the whole story behind the Aro "authenticity" is fake and spurious. There were never anybody called Aro Lingma, it's as easy as that. The wonder is why some people keep following the teachings of someone whose main inspiration is based on a lie intended to give him some credentials... :shrug:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:34 pm 
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mutsuk, how do you know what you say is true?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Because there never existed any Lingma as far as I know in general (don't hesitate to prove me wrong), and no Aro Lingma in particular. Nobody except Chogyam has heard of her. Nobody in Tibet, nobody (tibetologists, practitioners, lineage holders, etc.) working or living in the region she is supposed to have lived, etc. There is not a single trace of her anywhere else than in Chogyam's hoax. Since purity of the lineage is so important in Tantra and Dzogchen, I'm really wondering why people would keep on defending someone who goes as far as lying in this matter and others (like pretending to be a tertön, etc). This is a shame for the tradition.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:14 pm 
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mutsuk wrote:
Because there never existed any Lingma as far as I know in general (don't hesitate to prove me wrong), and no Aro Lingma in particular. Nobody except Chogyam has heard of her. Nobody in Tibet, nobody (tibetologists, practitioners, lineage holders, etc.) working or living in the region she is supposed to have lived, etc.

I'm wondering what region that is. I haven't heard anything more specific than 'near the border between India & Nepal'.

Have you read any of the material on http://approachingaro.org/?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:21 pm 
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sdw wrote:
Have you read any of the material on http://approachingaro.org/?

Yes I have. This does not change anything to the fact that Chogyam is a fake. This is not good karma at all to lead people like this, pretending to be someone one is not, etc. I couldn't care less about his supposed recognitions by others or his authorization to teach, there is a gazillion western individuals authorized to teach and recognized by their own masters. No need to create a false tradition based on someone who never existed and no need to pretend to have received a transmission from this woman who never existed. This is really a shame. What kind of good things can come from something based on a lie invented by an individual in order to promote himself, and doing this so ridiculously as to claim connection with someone who never existed? This is an ugly shame.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:37 pm 
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sdw wrote:
mutsuk wrote:
Because there never existed any Lingma as far as I know in general (don't hesitate to prove me wrong), and no Aro Lingma in particular. Nobody except Chogyam has heard of her. Nobody in Tibet, nobody (tibetologists, practitioners, lineage holders, etc.) working or living in the region she is supposed to have lived, etc.

I'm wondering what region that is. I haven't heard anything more specific than 'near the border between India & Nepal'.


In 20 years as a disciple you never asked? You do understand that Tibet near the border of India and Nepal is a pretty defined area?

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:14 pm 
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heart wrote:
In 20 years as a disciple you never asked?

Actually it never occurred to me to ask exactly where Aro Lingma & her disciples lived. Maybe it is an obvious question to some but it wasn't to me. I guess I wasn't looking to prove or disprove anything.

Shardröl


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:49 pm 
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sdw wrote:
heart wrote:
In 20 years as a disciple you never asked?

Actually it never occurred to me to ask exactly where Aro Lingma & her disciples lived. Maybe it is an obvious question to some but it wasn't to me. I guess I wasn't looking to prove or disprove anything.

Shardröl


If someone told me that Chokgyur Lingpa never existed I would be very interested in proofs of his existence. Like mutsuk says, Vajrayana depends on a reliable lineage.

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:58 pm 
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I think Vajrayana depends on the realization of the Lama.

Shardröl


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:13 pm 
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sdw wrote:
I think Vajrayana depends on the realization of the Lama.

Shardröl



...which in turn is completely dependant on an authentic, unbroken lineage of transmission. This isn't optional or up for debate.....no lineage=no realization.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:03 am 
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Stewart wrote:
sdw wrote:
I think Vajrayana depends on the realization of the Lama.

Shardröl

...which in turn is completely dependant on an authentic, unbroken lineage of transmission. This isn't optional or up for debate.....no lineage=no realization.

Would you say then that only a Buddhist can achieve realization?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:11 am 
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Could everyone please go :focus: ? Maybe a mod could split the discussion about Aro. Would anyone also happen to know about any tertons in Western or Central Tibet?


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