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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:05 am 
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seeker242 wrote:
If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?


Well, it's not like they are given an option. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:15 am 
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The practices of Buddhist Monks traces from the Vinaya, which is from Shakyamuni Buddha Himself.

Ethics, have been a part of Buddhism from the very beginning.

And they continue to be so.

In Gassho,
Sara H

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IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:57 am 
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shel wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?


Well, it's not like they are given an option. :?
Of course they have an option, they have the option of not becoming monks. If you are not a monk then you do not have to follow the vinaya.
:namaste:

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:18 am 
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Sara H wrote:
The practices of Buddhist Monks traces from the Vinaya, which is from Shakyamuni Buddha Himself.

Ethics, have been a part of Buddhism from the very beginning.

And they continue to be so.

In Gassho,
Sara H


It is a historical nonsense... Vinaya was later development and Buddha did not teach it from the beginning. It applies even much more if you talk about the VERY beginning. The only known thing was refuge in 3 jewels from beginning, but actually just ''come''... it was all of the ''vinaya''...

Vinaya is a product of passing time and different strange things monks and nuns did.. specially girls were very good in producing MANY crazy things... the best hit of vinaya for nuns is about a nun who had repeated orgasms in a stream, strong current of water stimulated the lucky girl... and her friends followed her :) so many nuns sitting in a stream against the current with legs apart enjoying themselves, drew finally someones attention. Did you ever study vinaya or read it??? it is full of human funny things, sometimes reminds Monthy Python gags sometimes strange things indeed... what is the point in zen about it???????????????

Zen is to cut through all crazy deluded mind, it is not about idiots who appeared during Buddha lifetime... if you like SO MUCH vinaya just make a file for vinaya :) what for to mix it up with zen? Japanese zen? Zen is japanese thing, it is japanese name, it is japanese approach to the highest realization of buddhahood, it has nothing to do with being obsessed with vinaya. Which is fine for those who need it. IF you talk about chinese chan etc. then ok... i do not mind but to constantly and repeatedly talk about ZEN ad ethics is just pure nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:20 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?


Well, it's not like they are given an option. :?
Of course they have an option, they have the option of not becoming monks. If you are not a monk then you do not have to follow the vinaya.
:namaste:


There are more options, just do not practice zen, then you are free from dilemmas :D


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:23 am 
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I thought that the idea of practicing zen was to free oneself from dilemmas! :shrug:
:smile:

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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:46 am 
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Here is something interesting from the wonderful Bankei,

Bankei Zen, tr. P. Haskel, p. 7 wrote:
A certain master of the Precepts School asked: "Doesn't your Reverence observe the precepts?"
The Master said: "Originally, what people call the precepts were all for wicked monks who broke the rules; for the man who abides in the Unborn Buddha Mind, there's no need for precepts. The precepts were taught to help sentient beings—they weren't taught to help buddhas! What everyone has from his parents innately is the Unborn Buddha Mind alone, so abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind. When you abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind, you're a living buddha here today, and that living buddha certainly isn't going to concoct anything like taking the precepts, so there aren't any precepts for him to take. To concoct anything like taking the precepts is not what's meant by the Unborn Buddha Mind. When you abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind, there's no way you can violate the precepts. From the standpoint of the Unborn, the precepts too are secondary, peripheral concerns; in the place of the Unborn, there's really no such thing as precepts. . . ."


So, there is no need for the precepts, because they don't violate it anyway.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Here is something interesting from the wonderful Bankei,

Bankei Zen, tr. P. Haskel, p. 7 wrote:
A certain master of the Precepts School asked: "Doesn't your Reverence observe the precepts?"
The Master said: "Originally, what people call the precepts were all for wicked monks who broke the rules; for the man who abides in the Unborn Buddha Mind, there's no need for precepts. The precepts were taught to help sentient beings—they weren't taught to help buddhas! What everyone has from his parents innately is the Unborn Buddha Mind alone, so abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind. When you abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind, you're a living buddha here today, and that living buddha certainly isn't going to concoct anything like taking the precepts, so there aren't any precepts for him to take. To concoct anything like taking the precepts is not what's meant by the Unborn Buddha Mind. When you abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind, there's no way you can violate the precepts. From the standpoint of the Unborn, the precepts too are secondary, peripheral concerns; in the place of the Unborn, there's really no such thing as precepts. . . ."


So, there is no need for the precepts, because they don't violate it anyway.


No need for precepts for one who abides in the Unborn Buddha Mind. But how many people and monks actually can actually do that or actually do do that? The precepts were taught to help sentient beings. Is it safe to say that the majority of human beings are indeed sentient beings? I think so! Are the precepts helpful to one who does not abide or does not know how to abide, in the unborn Buddha mind?

Matylda wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?


It is very simple... since zen has no morals, it is better to give zen monks some vows and precepts, for the sake of security.. what would happen if they did not have?! difficult to imagine!


Why would it be better for the sake of security? Security of what? Security of laypersons food and possessions who live next to a temple? Security from thieving monks?

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One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:04 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?


Well, it's not like they are given an option. :?
Of course they have an option, they have the option of not becoming monks. If you are not a monk then you do not have to follow the vinaya.
:namaste:

You seem to be assuming that monks never break their vows.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:12 pm 
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shel wrote:
You seem to be assuming that monks never break their vows.
You seem to be reading a lot more into my post than is actually there. Monks choose to become monks and are normally quite aware of the rules they have to follow before doing so. How this leads to your conclusion I fail to see.
:namaste:

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:17 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
I thought that the idea of practicing zen was to free oneself from dilemmas! :shrug:
:smile:


But for many it creates a big dilemmas, since does not fit into their ideas :D


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:20 pm 
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seeker242 wrote:
Why would it be better for the sake of security? Security of what? Security of laypersons food and possessions who live next to a temple? Security from thieving monks?


Security of mental health of those who have problems with zen monks :D


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 Post subject: Re: Zen has No Morals
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:57 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
You seem to be assuming that monks never break their vows.
You seem to be reading a lot more into my post than is actually there. Monks choose to become monks and are normally quite aware of the rules they have to follow before doing so. How this leads to your conclusion I fail to see.
:namaste:

Allow me to explain good Sir. :smile:

You wrote: "they have the option of not becoming monks" True, but that is not the only option, right!?


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