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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:03 am 
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Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.Whether we are Hindus,Buddhist,Jains,Sikhs,etc we all seek enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth.Our religions have common roots and most of us teach ahimsa(or a doctrine similar to it.) :yinyang:

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:00 am 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.Whether we are Hindus,Buddhist,Jains,Sikhs,etc we all seek enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth.Our religions have common roots and most of us teach ahimsa(or a doctrine similar to it.) :yinyang:


Personally, I agree. The doctrine of ahimsa should be a uniting factor for a number of religions. I have yet to understand the concept of killing someone over their ideas about the nature (or non-nature) of God or gods.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:47 am 
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Be careful not to overly conflate the Vedic / Brahmanic lines with the Sramanic lines, as while both use the term "dharma", there are some very big differences.

~~ Huifeng

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:54 am 
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Quote:
Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)
Sure...
Quote:
members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.
A 'special bond' like? Are you thinking along the lines of Islam and their concept of the 'People of the Book'?
Quote:
Whether we are Hindus,Buddhist,Jains,Sikhs,etc we all seek enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth.
Really? By the way, what is 'enlightenment' and 'liberation'? The last time I talked to some 'Buddhists', they were more interested in coming back again as more handsome men or pretty women or postponing cultivation for the 'next life' for stuff like making more money & 'sowing more wild oats' ...
Consider this passage...
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Sakka, having delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words, asked Him a further question:

"Dear Sir, do all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"Why, dear Sir, don't all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"The world is made up of many properties, various properties. Because of the many & various properties in the world, then whichever property living beings get fixated on, they become entrenched & latch onto it, saying, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"But, dear Sir, are all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

"But why, dear Sir, are not all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"Those monks who are released through the total ending of craving are the ones who are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate. This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

Quote:
Our religions have common roots and most of us teach ahimsa(or a doctrine similar to it.)
So do the positive atheists and other religionists and the point is?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:58 am 
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plwk wrote:
Quote:
Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)
Sure...
Quote:
members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.
A 'special bond' like? Are you thinking along the lines of Islam and their concept of the 'People of the Book'?
Quote:
Whether we are Hindus,Buddhist,Jains,Sikhs,etc we all seek enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth.
Really? By the way, what is 'enlightenment' and 'liberation'? The last time I talked to some 'Buddhists', they were more interested in coming back again as more handsome men or pretty women or postponing cultivation for the 'next life' for stuff like making more money & 'sowing more wild oats' ...
Consider this passage...
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Sakka, having delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words, asked Him a further question:

"Dear Sir, do all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"Why, dear Sir, don't all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"The world is made up of many properties, various properties. Because of the many & various properties in the world, then whichever property living beings get fixated on, they become entrenched & latch onto it, saying, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"But, dear Sir, are all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

"But why, dear Sir, are not all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"Those monks who are released through the total ending of craving are the ones who are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate. This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

Quote:
Our religions have common roots and most of us teach ahimsa(or a doctrine similar to it.)
So do the positive atheists and other religionists and the point is?


You are angry. You don't need to project this here.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:59 am 
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Huifeng wrote:
Be careful not to overly conflate the Vedic / Brahmanic lines with the Sramanic lines, as while both use the term "dharma", there are some very big differences.

~~ Huifeng


Be careful not to project your ice-cold ideas on innocent people.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:30 am 
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plwk wrote:
Quote:
Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)
Sure...
Quote:
members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.
A 'special bond' like? Are you thinking along the lines of Islam and their concept of the 'People of the Book'?
Quote:
Whether we are Hindus,Buddhist,Jains,Sikhs,etc we all seek enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth.
Really? By the way, what is 'enlightenment' and 'liberation'? The last time I talked to some 'Buddhists', they were more interested in coming back again as more handsome men or pretty women or postponing cultivation for the 'next life' for stuff like making more money & 'sowing more wild oats' ...
Consider this passage...
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Sakka, having delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words, asked Him a further question:

"Dear Sir, do all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"Why, dear Sir, don't all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal?"
"The world is made up of many properties, various properties. Because of the many & various properties in the world, then whichever property living beings get fixated on, they become entrenched & latch onto it, saying, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."

"But, dear Sir, are all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"No, deva-king, not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

"But why, dear Sir, are not all brahmans & contemplatives utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate?"
"Those monks who are released through the total ending of craving are the ones who are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate. This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives are utterly complete, utterly free from bonds, followers of the utterly holy life, utterly consummate."

Quote:
Our religions have common roots and most of us teach ahimsa(or a doctrine similar to it.)
So do the positive atheists and other religionists and the point is?


LOL,no need to be a negative Nancy. :tongue:

_________________
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:34 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Be careful not to overly conflate the Vedic / Brahmanic lines with the Sramanic lines, as while both use the term "dharma", there are some very big differences.

~~ Huifeng


Be careful not to project your ice-cold ideas on innocent people.


Ice-cold are the hearts of those who advocate and practice the ritual sacrifice of animals in order to obtain worldly aims. Performing such a sacrifice is the svadharma of the brahmin priest, just as war is the svadharma of the ksatriya warrior king. So the Vedas teach.

Ahimsa / non-violence was largely advocated by the sramana traditions, such as the Nataputra Jainas and the Sakyaputra Bauddhas. Though some later Brahmanic interpretations also adopted such an attitude.

~~ Huifeng

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:15 am 
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OP, you do not even realize how much hatred the Brahmanic religions had for Buddhism and Shramanism in general. Let me repost my another post from another thread here:

_________

Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries, and “put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism” [Joshi, 404].

The celebrated Tibetan historian Lama Taranatha mentions the march of Pushyamitra from Madhyadesha to Jalandhara. In the course of his campaigns, the book states, Pushyamitra burned down numerous Buddhist monasteries and killed a number of learned monks The archaeological evidence for the ravages wrought by Pushyamitra and other Hindu fanatic rulers on famous Buddhist shrines is abundant.

The Brhannaradiya-purana lays it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a Buddhist even in times of great peril.

The drama Mrchchhakatika shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight was considered inauspicious.

The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to delude the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists.

Yuan Chwang’s account reads, “In recent times Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down the Bodhi tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned what remained.” [Watters II p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried “to have the image (of Lord Buddha at Bodhgaya) removed and replaced by one of Shiva”.

Madhava Acharya, in his “Sankara-digvijayam” of the fourteenth century A.D., records that Suddhanvan “issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from Ramesvaram to the Himalaya".



Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana, the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site in 1860-61.

According to The Rajatarangani (IV/112), Chandradip, a Buddhist ruler of Kashmir, was killed by Brahmins in 722 AD. His successor Tarapida was killed two years later. The newly anointed Brahma-Kshastra (Rajput) rulers usurped power in the kingdoms of Sind and Kota. Graha Varman Maukhari, married to Harsha’s sister, was treacherously killed by Sasanka, king of Gauda (Bengal). He proudly destroyed many stupas and cut down the sacred Bodhi tree at Gaya.

According to Gopinath Rao (East & West Vol 35) the old tribal shrine at Jaganath Puri was usurped by Vaisnavas and the walls of the temple even today displays gory murals recording the beheading and massacre of Buddhists.


Epigraphica India Vol XXIX P 141-144 records that Vira Goggi Deva, a South Indian king, described himself as… “a fire to the Jain scriptures, a hunter of wild beasts in the form of the followers of Jina (Jains) and an adept at the demolition of Buddhist canon”. It also records “the deliberate destruction of non Brahminical literature like books of Lokayat/ Carvaca philosophy by Brihaspati mentioned by Albaruni in the 11th century.” The huge Buddhist complex at Nagarjunakonda was destroyed. According to Shankara Dig Vijaya, the newly anointed Brahma-Kshastra kings ordered every Kshatriya to kill every Buddhist young and old and to also kill those who did not kill the Buddhists. A Jain temple at Huli in Karnataka had a statue of five Jinas (Jain heroes) that was re carved into a Shaivite temple with five lingas.

In Kanauj where Fa Hien had seen two monasteries of Little Vehicle, his successors Song-Yun and Tao-Sheng neither monks nor nuns, though the temples were numerous. This is attributed by him to the Huna invasion.
"But even Kanauj, the metropolis of Harsa, the famed patron of Buddhism and Buddhist pilgrims in the first of the seventh century AD, is seen populated by anti-Buddhist Brahmanas and Deva-worshipers and the number of temples exceeded the viharas"[Pg.298]

"The puranas, the Mrchhakatikas, the Yajnavalkya-smriti, the Rajtarangini, the works of Kumarila and Sankara, the accounts of Chinese travelers, and the histories of Bu-Ston and Taranatha, do seem to point to deeper hatred for Buddhism.""The mounting tide of anti-Buddhist propaganda in Brahmanical literature seems to have reached its apex in the hands of Sankaracharya........Sankara's biography tells us that the great guru led a religious expedition against Bauddhas and caused their destruction from the Himalayas to the Indian Ocean".


********


1. Kautilya's Arthashastra contemptuously describes the followers of Non-Vedic religions Vrsala or Pasanda (Sakyas, Ajivikas etc), assigns them residence at the end of or near cremation grounds. (Arthaśāstra, II.4.23; III.20.16.)

2. Saurapurana says that the Charvakas, Buddhists and Jains should not be allowed to settle in a Kingdom (Saurapurā a, 64.44; 38.54).

3. In Uttar Pradesh, we are told, forty-seven deserted sites of fortified towns in Sultanpur district are the ruins of Buddhist cities which were destroyed by fire when Brāhma ism
won its final victory over Buddhism. (Jha, P 35, "Looking for Hindu identity)


******

Recently I was reading the travelogue of a Magadhan Buddhist monk called Sunyasdi who had traveled to Lanka from Nalanda to understand the meaning of Prajna (Irony?), and who later traveled to China and Korea, where he settled till his death. He also writes that the while traveling through the Shaivite Kingdom in South, he had to walk at night because they had sent assassins to kill him. Also, he completely avoided going to a village near Jalandhara because it was dominated by Brahmins. And this is in 14th century India!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:17 am 
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Also, OP, you may consider all Dharmic religions as brothers, but the Hindus consider Buddhism as a minor sect of Hinduism. It is common for Hindus to claim that Buddha was a Vishnu avatar and that he only did some minor cosmetic changes to "Greater Hindu religion" to come out with another sect. They also claim that Buddha owed to the Brahmins for creating this religion. Some Hindus outrightly deny that Buddha even created a religion.

This misinformation should be cleared, instead of promoted.

PS: I am an ex-Hindu.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:43 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Also, OP, you may consider all Dharmic religions as brothers, but the Hindus consider Buddhism as a minor sect of Hinduism. It is common for Hindus to claim that Buddha was a Vishnu avatar and that he only did some minor cosmetic changes to "Greater Hindu religion" to come out with another sect. They also claim that Buddha owed to the Brahmins for creating this religion. Some Hindus outrightly deny that Buddha even created a religion.

This misinformation should be cleared, instead of promoted.

PS: I am an ex-Hindu.


Rakshasa,your temper matches your username. :tongue: Yes,in the past Buddhist have been persecuted by Hindus,and yes,the Brahmins have claimed Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu which was likely an attempt to get rid of him or reduce his status.However,you can't just condemn Hindus for that.We share several gods,Mahakala/Shiva,Hayagriva,Skanda and several others.In the past,there have been several evil people who have persecuted people for their religion and ethnicity.Are we going to condemn all Christians just because of the atrocities of Adolf Hitler and other cruel Christian dictators?Should Jews hate and despise all Christians for the persecution they had experienced in the past?You seem to bear a lot of hatred towards Hinduism,but both religions,together with Jainism,sprung up from the same roots and share several of the same gods(though I'm unsure about the Jains.)

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A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:56 pm 
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The bond of good will extends to people of good will, whatever the religion or its lack. :twothumbsup:
The bond of intolerance decends much the same as always . . . :shrug:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:15 pm 
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And why shouldn't we love the Jains?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:59 am 
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Man you guys spend alot of time calling one another angry, seems kind of a passive aggressive way of being..well, angry :)

Anyway it's a nice idea..i've met authentic folks from a variety of religions, and plenty with no religion whatsoever. I find Sikhi particularly attractive for a number of reasons.

I think to define whether or not someone is similar to you spiritually, the path walked in life, conclusions made about life and existence are sometimes more important than formal religious training is. Perhaps it's just me being a privileged, multicultural American, but personally when i'm looking to find whether someone is my 'brother' in their worldview or ethics.,..plenty of times religion does not even figure into it, as it's been my experience that plenty who profess strong religion don't seem to actually have it.

*Shrug*

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:16 am 
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Huifeng, All these comparisons. How about "To be, free from the ego, is the bliss of life"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am 
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greentara wrote:
Huifeng, All these comparisons. How about "To be, free from the ego, is the bliss of life"


What is egoistic about seeing things as they are? I guess for a lot of us, ignorance is indeed bliss.

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If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:34 am 
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Red Faced Buddha wrote:
Although I think we should consider all men and women our brothers and sisters(metaphorically speaking.)members of Dharmic religions have a special bond.

Well, the felt self is always seeking a home and the fabrications created to preserve itself through building a home (for consciousness) are without limit. Hope and fear are concomitant. :sage:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:04 am 
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pueraeternus »





"What is egoistic about seeing things as they are? I guess for a lot of us, ignorance is indeed bliss."
You misunderstood, I'm saying the ego is the source of all problems! I am not saying it is egotistical to see things as they are.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:41 am 
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greentara wrote:
Huifeng, All these comparisons. How about "To be, free from the ego, is the bliss of life"
Venerable Huifeng. Our friend is a Mahayana monk teaching Buddhism in a Hong Kong University.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:38 pm 
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greentara wrote:
pueraeternus »

"What is egoistic about seeing things as they are? I guess for a lot of us, ignorance is indeed bliss."
You misunderstood, I'm saying the ego is the source of all problems! I am not saying it is egotistical to see things as they are.


Ah I see - noted.

In any case, I think Ven Huifeng is right to point out that there are differences in how each of the Dharmic religions define dharma. It is an important consideration to have when discussing the Dharmic religions as a group.

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If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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