How often to do you see your Teacher?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.

How often do you see your Teacher?

Several times per week
2
4%
Once a week
4
8%
A couple of times per month
4
8%
Once a month
3
6%
A couple of times per year
14
27%
Once a year
11
21%
Once every couple of years
5
10%
Once every several years
3
6%
My Teacher has died
6
12%
 
Total votes: 52

User avatar
heart
Posts: 6286
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by heart »

pemachophel wrote:So now my questions are:

1. Has the teaching methodology we have evolved in the West where foreign-born Rinpoches spend a weekend in a particular city only once per year (or less) and the "rank and file" hardly ever get to spend personal f2f time with their Teachers taken a wrong turn? IOW, is it really working for the majority of students?

(Sorry if this is a provocative question, but I'm not convinced.)

2. If your answer is yes, we have, willy nilly, evolved a inapt teaching methodology, what, if anything, can be done about it?

If people want to discuss how this teaching methodology came about historically as a way of beginning to suggest alternatives, that's fine with me.

:namaste:
Man many years I was sure this would never work (meeting the Guru once a year) but to my surprise I must say that I now feel it is possible as a methodology to a certain point, which was what my Guru said all the time.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
pemachophel
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by pemachophel »

Magnus,

Good to hear.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
User avatar
Sally Gross
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Contact:

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by Sally Gross »

heart wrote:You should invite him, he might come. I think that would be great for you.

/magnus
Thank you, Magnus :anjali:

The sole Vajra brother I know in Cape Town and I have been talking about this. Rinpoche has been here once already, and would probably welcome the opportunity to teach here again. I would also like to see the formation of a group, as the seed of a Gar. What concerns me in this regard is not a physical centre -- at least, not at this stage -- but the living stones of a local Dzogchen community of practitioners who meet periodically for collective practices. With that as a basis, who knows what might develop.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6286
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by heart »

Sally Gross wrote:
heart wrote:You should invite him, he might come. I think that would be great for you.

/magnus
Thank you, Magnus :anjali:

The sole Vajra brother I know in Cape Town and I have been talking about this. Rinpoche has been here once already, and would probably welcome the opportunity to teach here again. I would also like to see the formation of a group, as the seed of a Gar. What concerns me in this regard is not a physical centre -- at least, not at this stage -- but the living stones of a local Dzogchen community of practitioners who meet periodically for collective practices. With that as a basis, who knows what might develop.
My suggestion is to see if you can get together a group of 5-10 people that are interested in inviting him (not necessary practitioners) and just do it, if Rinpoche come it will be much easier to find the a group that could be a "seed of a gar". This is my own experience with similar matters.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by Karma Dorje »

pemachophel wrote:So now my questions are:

1. Has the teaching methodology we have evolved in the West where foreign-born Rinpoches spend a weekend in a particular city only once per year (or less) and the "rank and file" hardly ever get to spend personal f2f time with their Teachers taken a wrong turn? IOW, is it really working for the majority of students?
This is an important question. I had regular face to face contact with my guru for 20+ years. He spent 40+ years in retreat over his 70 year long life and really just came out to give us teachings and then returned to retreat. I believe regular face-to-face contact is essential to developing one's character. I for one find my capacity for self-deception and hubris to be boundless. When Rinpoche was alive, he could cut through that with a single look or joke. While there is no doubt that mixing one's mind in guru yoga is very effective in developing wisdom, one can also go wildly off in the wrong direction without someone to correct you. I have met a number of students recently that have never had face to face relationships with a teacher. There is no question that they are very sincere and devoted to the path. Unfortunately, I think the results are somewhat mixed as they have had to make due with little supervision and put together their working assumptions piecemeal. There is definitely a tendency to self-satisfaction on the one hand, or almost debilitating lack of confidence on the other. While I have also encountered both of those in a close sangha with lots of access to the teacher, it was much less pronounced.

I think the current lama tours are better than nothing but hardly optimal. So much of the transmission occurs informally! My belief is that we need to have local mahasiddhas that are intimately involved with our culture and lives. Without that, I don't think Dharma will ever really take root here. Satsang is indispensible.
pemachophel wrote: 2. If your answer is yes, we have, willy nilly, evolved a inapt teaching methodology, what, if anything, can be done about it?
It's hard to say how this can be remedied outside of having a couple generations of Western mahasiddhas pass on their realization to students who then also teach. I think that ChNNR's approach of focusing on what teachings can be integrated with the current Western lifestyle is an important step in the right direction, but I am not certain that large institutions are necessarily the best way forward. I can't help but think that many Tibetan lamas don't see much of a future in the West for the pure Dharma teachings outside of a very small number of diligent practitioners. I think that those of us that have benefitted from a close relationship with gurus have to reach the goal and then similarly take responsibility for a sangha of our own. Short of that, we must simply work with the current situation as honestly as possible.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6286
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by heart »

:good:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by Ayu »

I see my teacher often during meditation.

But I clicked on "once a month", because that's how often I see him physically.
pemachophel
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by pemachophel »

Karma Dorje,

I agree with Magnus, "good post." I think regular face-2-face contact with the Teacher is extremely important. The Teacher's job is to show us all our flaws, to make us uncomfortable, to cut our ego down to size, and, ultimately, to obliterate it. You're not the only one with limitless self-deception, and a good Guru cuts through the crap with, as you say, a single look. It's also the Teacher's job to push us past our self-imposed limits, to make us do what we wouldn't if left to our own devices. That's why so many monlams end with the prayer, "May I never be separated from my Guru."

I also agree that we need to find a way to foster small groups interacting closely and over long periods of time with Realized Gurus, whether Asian or Western. Please hurry up!

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
jconnar
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by jconnar »

every moment
User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by Konchog1 »

pemachophel wrote:Karma Dorje,

I agree with Magnus, "good post." I think regular face-2-face contact with the Teacher is extremely important. The Teacher's job is to show us all our flaws, to make us uncomfortable, to cut our ego down to size, and, ultimately, to obliterate it. You're not the only one with limitless self-deception, and a good Guru cuts through the crap with, as you say, a single look. It's also the Teacher's job to push us past our self-imposed limits, to make us do what we wouldn't if left to our own devices. That's why so many monlams end with the prayer, "May I never be separated from my Guru."

I also agree that we need to find a way to foster small groups interacting closely and over long periods of time with Realized Gurus, whether Asian or Western. Please hurry up!

:namaste:
Is there not a danger due to ego games with this? Lord Tsongkhapa quotes Geshe Bo-do-wa twice in the Lam Rim Chen Mo eng v1 pg. 87 tib pg. 49 as saying "We present-day followers do not value the teachings at all, but only value the guru's assigning status to us as demonstrated by each cup of tea that the guru gives to us. This is a sign of our deep corruption. [...] Therefore, practice for a long time at a moderate distance."
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
florin
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by florin »

As far as i can tell CNNR doesnt think that meeting him f2f is a requirement or necessary.
Unless you need instructions on yangti or togal or other situations where your physical presence is required......
pemachophel
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by pemachophel »

Alpha,

I hope He is right. Time will tell. However, even as a student of ChNNR, I know I need a Teacher I can be with f-2-f from time to time. If one hasn't had a prolonged, close personal relationship with a Teacher, it's hard to convey the benefits. If you can make it work without that, that's wonderful.

Good luck and best wishes. :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: How often to do you see your Teacher?

Post by MiphamFan »

pemachophel wrote:So now my questions are:

1. Has the teaching methodology we have evolved in the West where foreign-born Rinpoches spend a weekend in a particular city only once per year (or less) and the "rank and file" hardly ever get to spend personal f2f time with their Teachers taken a wrong turn? IOW, is it really working for the majority of students?

(Sorry if this is a provocative question, but I'm not convinced.)

2. If your answer is yes, we have, willy nilly, evolved a inapt teaching methodology, what, if anything, can be done about it?

If people want to discuss how this teaching methodology came about historically as a way of beginning to suggest alternatives, that's fine with me.

:namaste:
Sorry to revive this old topic, but I've been thinking about this topic (whether or not I would benefit from living closely with a teacher) and looking at my own experience.

To answer the questions:

1. I think really it depends on the community and how they provide the teachings. In my experience with the Dzogchen Community, I have had very little doubts about the practices and most of my doubts can be cleared up with SMS instructors (who themselves often did spend years with ChNN of course). With most other sanghas, I don't mean to be rude, but sometimes I am left scratching my head, not sure if I should even try doing the practice because the arrangements of the liturgies are a lot more complicated, with a lot of flipping back and forth. In the beginning I was of course confused even in the DC, but the learning curve was not very steep, while it seems to be steeper, at least for me, in other sanghas. I did get benefit from the teachings I received from other sanghas, but as a daily practice I just find the DC practices far easier to understand and practice. One exception is with the Sakyapas though. I only received one empowerment from HHST, but the explanation was clear and the sadhana fairly straightforward even without face-to-face time with HHST.

So I think it really depends on the teacher, the approach, the student. You can't say that this kind of approach is doomed for failure across the board, at least I don't think so, for what little my opinion is worth. I am sure other people might find the DC approach not to their needs and other sanghas far more suitable for them.

In the biography of Togden Urgyen Tendzin, the uncle of ChNN who realized rainbow body, he barely spent much time directly with Adzom Drugpa too, but did spend a lot of time with senior students of Adzom Drugpa. Likewise, Jigme Lingpa received many transmissions in an assembly while he was a monk, but he never had the opportunity to study closely with a teacher, nonetheless, he did read and study and practice and he realized. ChNN said himself many times that he hopes all his students practice to the level where they don't need an external guru.

2. It's a two way process I think.

The lamas need to see how things are going, and if they are not going well, try to do something about it. Likewise, if the students feel that there is something wrong with their own practice, then they should voice their concerns and see what the lamas say.

There was a period of time when I was longing for close contact with a teacher and sort-of envious of those who had this contact. But then I wondered what I would get out of such a relationship that I don't already have? I already have Dzogchen transmissions from a great teacher which I know how to practice, and many different Vajrayana transmissions, which I have a difficult enough time practicing. If I wanted to become a ritual specialist or a religious professional, undoubtedly I would need much more instruction in Vajrayana liturgies. But at this point in my life, I don't see that happening. I would very much like to enter a long retreat, but then I have other responsibilities and lack the funds -- these days everything requires money, going on retreat in Tibet, Nepal, India where you can expect at least donations of basic sustenance is very different from going on retreat in the modernized world. I am happy with my daily DC practices, which I understand and can do within daily life. So personally I don't see the need for this for me personally any more. Of course, if I know of a good, qualified Dzogchen master living near me and who is accessible, I would make an effort to at least meet with him and see how it goes, but I don't see my situation as something lamentable.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”