Time in Kalachakra

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi Delek Luke,

Some tell that Kalachakra is a Tantra which does not belong to Buddhism.
Well i can imagine myself that would be, because the time line or Cosmological time is different then in general Buddhism and Hidhu, where we have the horizontal and verical cosmologicaL divisions.

Could You please explain to me this "time" seen in the light of the Kalachakra.
Got some years ago this Kalachakra initiation but never did the practice because my Lama did not find that so important, working or karma yoga did he seen for me as more important or better said working jobs and working jobs. This is the Lama mentality in Tibet only exceptions can do the practice and i was an exception a working horse which did not deserved the food....


Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung

[Luke]

Hi Kalden,

Sorry, but I'm really not qualified to say much about the Kalachakra Tantra. I have only received a few basic teachings from a Jonang lama. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to attend his Kalachakra teachings. Maybe other more knowledgeable peope could answer this. I just had this subforum created to prepare the way for more knowledgeable Jonangpa who might come later.

There is an interesting website called http://kalachakranet.org and you might find an answer to your questions there or in some of the books they recommend.

There is also a lot about Kalachakra on Dr. Berzin's website:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav ... 62326.html

As far as Kalachakra "not being Buddhist," I found this excerpt from kalachakranet.org:
KALACHAKRA AND OTHER RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS

Among the other practices of the Highest Yoga Tantra (Anuttarayoga in Skt.), the Kalachakra is in many aspects somewhat unusual. Many details in this system deviate from the other Buddhist tantras, but they are often also complementary to the other tantric systems. In fact, when the Kalachakra was first introduced in the great Buddhist university of Nalanda (India), these differences did cause some confusion. After extensive study, the greatest masters agreed the system was genuinely Buddhist, and the Kalachakra received its own place in the vast array of Mahayana Buddhist teachings. In many aspects, the Kalachakra system clearly shows its Buddhist core with concepts like renunciation, bodhicitta, emptiness, enlightenment etc. being of major importance to the practice. Kalachakra is also called the "clear" tantra, because its language is unusually clear and straightforward as compared to most other Highest Yoga Tantras.

As Vesna Wallace notes in [5], the Kalachakratantra appears to combine aspects of several different systems, including non-Buddhist systems of thought. For example, just in the part of cosmology, aspects can be found of the Vaibhashika, Puranic, Samkhya, Jaina, and of course the Buddhist Abidharma. Similarly, terminology of several Hindu traditions can be found, as well as terms from Ayurvedic medicine.

"...the Kalachakratantra adopts and redefines concepts characteristic of non-Buddhist systems, it also incorporates non-Buddhist cosmological views without reinterpreting them."
Vesna Wallace [5]

http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tan ... ction.html

So, even though the Kalachakra Tantra had some non-Buddhist influences, over the centuries, Buddhist masters have turned it into a thoroughly Buddhist method. I'm sure that great masters such as H.H. the Dalai Lama and H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche wouldn't have bothered with Kalachakra if they felt that it was in some way contrary to Buddhism.

[Luke]

Aha, here is something about the concept of time in Kalachakra from the Berzin Archives:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... on_02.html

[kalden yungdrung]

Aha, here is something about the concept of time in Kalachakra from the Berzin Archives:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... on_02.html

Tashi delek Luke,

Many thanks for your kind done replies.

Also very good that it became true that this sub-forum was founded and congratulations with your aspirations.
Sorry for my delay for these congratulations but it escaped fully to my attention.
You would at the moment be very happy because of good karma and all is wonderfull positive, like it

Her follows a nice photo from the Kalachkra initiation about 1985 done by Kyabye Dorje Chang Kalu Rinpoche.
But he was so finished with his phisycal body that H.E. Bokar Rinpoche took it over.
This initiation could be done because Shangpa sheltered Jonang and so they became lineage holders of this Tantra.
The visualisation of the three stages of the Mandal were difficult especially the gates with their dakinis etc.
Study was 1 week to get the picture inside.

Kalachakra1.JPG (276.22 KiB) Viewed 892 times

Photo can be enlarged, good quality


Best wishes for our practice
Kalden Yungdrung

[conebeckham]

This initiation could be done because Shangpa sheltered Jonang and so they became lineage holders of this Tantra.

Well....not technically correct.

By the time of Taranatha, there was no institutional Shangpa lineage, you know. The Shangpa transmission existed in the Karma Kagyu institutions, the Sakya Institutions, etc. Jetsun Taranatha actually founded his own monastery, and it was identified as Jonang, institutionally, until it was forcibly taken by the Gelukpas at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama.

Taranatha also was, to a very great extent, the codifier of the "long lineage" of the Shangpa Kagyu (as well as being a master of most Sarma traditions--he was a LamDre practitioner as well...) so I think it's more appropriate to say that the Jonang "sheltered" the Shangpa.

Since the time of Taranatha, until now, there's really been no institutional "Shangpa"--Kongtrul Lodro Taye talks about obtaining the empowerments, and he propagated the lineage from within the Karma Kagyu institution--while Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo propagated it amongst the Sakya, mainly.

[kalden yungdrung]

Hello Conebeckham

Thanks for the post.

Yes you are right, a historical slippery from my side.
Like people who are awake

But the final result is that Shangpa has Jonang inside their lineage, so are they also the lineage holders of the Kalachkra Tantra.

Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung

[Tashi Nyima]

Dear Friends

om svasti

I was very happy to read of your interest in (and learned discussion of) the Kalachakra.

Very briefly, the apparent contradiction between the Kalachakra cosmology and those of other tantras has been satisfactorily settled from various angles of vision. In essence, each tantra or tantra cycle constitutes a Dharma gate, and the instructions found within it are intended to guide practitioners to the same ultimate destination, albeit by slightly different routes. If two persons are standing in different geographical locations in reference to the same city, but both wish to enter it from their respective starting points, they must of necessity approach via different paths.

desha-kala-patra (place, time, and recipient) dictate the skillful means that the Buddhas will employ to tame various beings. Fundamentally, any and all descriptions of reality are provisional and limited, as human language is inherently incapable of revealing and containing ultimate reality.

Please note that most of the material in the Berzin archives refers to the Ra lineage of the Kalachakra, as transmitted by the Gelukpas, and not to the Dro lineage, as maintained by the Jonangpas.

I would be happy to discuss this topic further, if there is interest, as the Six Branch Vajrayoga is the main practice of the New Jonangpas.