"Can we reach enlightenment solely through that means without as is mentioned earlier in sutra quoted..without concentration focus and certain qualities developed, just by saying some words, being faithful and devoted and expecting to become enlightened."
It is true, one doesn't become enlightened simply by repeating Amita Buddha's name and having faith in his vows. And it is not enlightenment that is the immediate consequence of that but birth in Sukhavati. Then it is in Sukhavati that one practices the paramitas etc. and attains enlightenment. This compared to going to the monastery. Before being within the monastery one wishes to go there and so requests his admissin. After obtaining access one can practice in better circumstances than in a lay life. Is this so difficult to comprehend?
ronnewmexico wrote:Yes....500 years in a lotus leaf.
What is difficult to comprehend is why one cannot answer what has been asked, but simply prattle on as if enlightenment was a scheme of fees and payments to enter disneyland.
We do this and that and then....this occurs, we enter this fantastic place and eventually receive the ultimate gift...fulll enlightenment.
I again do not deny this as a valid path and will not repeat all I have stated, it is just too tedius, I have stated my point fairly clearly. The question remains why is it a preferred path. This ticket to enter disneyland depiction I don't see that as any valid spiritual path so described. A americanization it seems, a reading into things what may not be there. Something is there...it has not been yet described.
One sutra has been quoted and only one which seems to cotradict. Now apparently we may find others that state some semblence of what is stated(though I quite assume this semblence so far stated is a faulted one), but no mention is made of context nor to who each was spoken.
So debate or not......my ability or lack of ability to comprehend is not the issue of this debate but pure lands...why?
ronnewmexico wrote:The other idea we can obtain a cheap easy way to enlighenment without personally developeing the qualities of understanding and self knowledge thorugh meditational means which certainly do include devotion and prayer, but other quality as well, (in large part because we are to busy)....I firmly reject that ascertation.
Sherab wrote:ronnewmexico wrote:The other idea we can obtain a cheap easy way to enlighenment without personally developeing the qualities of understanding and self knowledge thorugh meditational means which certainly do include devotion and prayer, but other quality as well, (in large part because we are to busy)....I firmly reject that ascertation.
I would not dismiss devotion and prayer being an effective path out of hand entirely. I take devotion to mean complete trust in the Buddha/guru as a being who have crossed over the ocean of samsara and complete trust in the Buddha/guru's ability and unconditional willingness in leading you across.
What does this complete trust (devotion) do? It opens up your mind to the mind of the Buddha/guru. For example, if you have a broken bone, you would allow a doctor to fix your broken arm because you trust he could fix it. Similarly, if you have a "broken" mind, by having complete trust in the Buddha/guru, you effectively allow the mind of the Buddha/guru to enter your mind to fix it. As an aside, this is what I think is meant by receiving blessings. There is an entry into your mind by the Buddha/guru and a change made in your mind as a result, regardless of whether you are aware of it or not.
Prayer is a form of expression of trust (devotion). If there is no such trust, the prayer would be pointless.
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