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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:37 am 
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Posts: 1030
Location: Southern Oregon
lobster wrote:
Pema if someone was Catholic and decided to end their life and was worried about entry to Heaven, I would go along with the nature of their understanding and needs. If somone was a born again lotus from the purelands and determined to end their suffering, I would pray and speak according to their needs.

So perhaps I am a liar and breaker of vows and ready to be born as a low life cructacean. When people suffer, truth is no substitute for understanding . . . Offering subjective ideas at such times, is not required, skilful or compassionate . . . :consoling:


I can dig it. FWIW, I don't feel this makes you or me or any Buddhist a liar or breaker of vows. Our most fundamental and important vow is to try to bring about the happiness of sentient beings (or at least keep from disturbing their minds and otherwise harming them), and in order to do that we must be skillful and not try to condition them, especially at such a crucial time. Sometimes we will need to blend in and be inconspicuous.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
The more intense the dukkha, the greater the need for powerful practices.
For example feeding hungry ghosts and hell realms.

There are oceans of pain, they are as empty as the oceans of bliss and interchangeable.
It is time to reveal such capacities to switch and smile into being the topological reality . . .

Intense pain. Intense awareness. Great opportunity. :yinyang:
http://www.wildmind.org/applied/pain

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:25 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Jefferson State, U.S.A
Suicide is rarely trying to coerce the other. Rather it is seen as the only option. If someone is lost in suffering and cannot find relief, the thought of suicide will be appealing. All intelligent people think of suicide at one time or another. Most suicides are older people. If you are old, poor, a burden on your family, or lonely and have no family and friends, not to mention health problems, medical bills and debt, loneliness, suicide is a very attractive option. And when somebody feels powerless, suicide is an act of empowerment. "I can't do anything about my situation, but at least I can commit suicide!" And since there are no victims, or you are victimizing yourself, it shouldn't be such a taboo and forbidden.

I have heard that the only religion that permits suicide is Jainism. But on one condition, that you can only commit suicide by fasting until death. That takes commitment instead of doing it on a whim. I think this is very wise. It is saying "Go ahead, it is ok to commit suicide! You just have to fast until you die." How many lives would this save? How many people would be able to starve themselves to death? Takes discipline and will power.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:53 pm
Posts: 141
The idea that a religion has anything to say about wether suicide is "allowed" is asinine.

Nobody can judge the suicide but the person who commits the suicide.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Posts: 84
A big number of people who are mentally ill commit suicide. (people who have schizophrenia, psychosis, not depression, etc).
If you would have any idea regarding the suffering of this people, you will never ever say that suicide is "incredible egocentric".
When you live in unimaginable fear and pain, all day, and nothing works, (psychotherapy, drugs, etc), and when you see that, day by day, you mental state is worse and worse, and your doctor explain to you that, there is practically no cure, than, at one moment, you just want all this hell to end, you just want the pain to stop. You just can take it anymore. Only than you contemplate suicide.
You sad that you experienced pain, "for some years". But there are people who experienced immense suffering for 10-15 years, and they realise that it's worse every day. How about then? It's so easy to talk, you know.
Jikan is right. I hope you never experience the pain that someone who is suicidal is experiencing.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Posts: 149
Queequeg wrote:
There are many instances of monks being sealed into sarcophogus alive - I believe associated with Zen schools.


Just to clarify: this has never been a practice of any Zen school. You are referring I think to the "Buddhist mummies" found in Japan. The small number of persons in the past who undertook this (rather fringe) practice were primarily Shingon-shu monks.

Sorry for interrupting. Casual statements like this sometimes gain a life of their own, however, so it needed a comment.

~ Meido

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide and Murder
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Sunny California
spanda wrote:
A big number of people who are mentally ill commit suicide. (people who have schizophrenia, psychosis, not depression, etc).
If you would have any idea regarding the suffering of this people, you will never ever say that suicide is "incredible egocentric".
When you live in unimaginable fear and pain, all day, and nothing works, (psychotherapy, drugs, etc), and when you see that, day by day, you mental state is worse and worse, and your doctor explain to you that, there is practically no cure, than, at one moment, you just want all this hell to end, you just want the pain to stop. You just can take it anymore. Only than you contemplate suicide.
You sad that you experienced pain, "for some years". But there are people who experienced immense suffering for 10-15 years, and they realise that it's worse every day. How about then? It's so easy to talk, you know.
Jikan is right. I hope you never experience the pain that someone who is suicidal is experiencing.


The OP said she has experienced something like this... read the subsequent posts.

The reasons people attempt suicide vary. Sometimes (often in the case of women) it is a plea for help, such as taking pills, then telling people about it. Sometimes it is an angry message to others -- such as blowing their brains out in some place where people will come upon the shocking scene. Other times it is not a message to others at all--just wanting relief from physical or emotional pain. There are often illnesses that underlie suicidal ideation, such as bipolar disorder http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-5618.2003.00017.x/abstract;jsessionid=8A01E243F9913F044D677F7478BE07F0.d04t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false.

In other words, it is complicated. This is the deepest kind of suffering, and my heart goes out to people who are feeling this kind of desperation, and to the suffering of bardo beings and the subsequent lower rebirths of people who have killed themselves.

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