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Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BlackBird
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:00 am

As many of us will know, it's easy to over estimate one's own accomplishments. Those who do not have a solid grounding can get carried away by such ideas. Although there's no prohibition on lay people declaring their attainments, and for monks it is a minor offense, actually making some claim is a lose/lose situation in most cases - It is bound to stir up a lot of controversy, an antithesis to peace, if you will.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Ben
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:11 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Viscid
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Viscid » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:14 am

"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:40 am

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Nyana
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:21 am


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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Reductor » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:39 am


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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:56 am


Jhana4
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:07 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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BlackBird
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:45 pm

Hi Ben.

Just for clarification: Regarding a Monk declaring his attainments to a layperson, the offence is far from defeat, it is a dukkata - a wrong doing. If one reads the BMC one will see that dukkatas are handed out for a lot of misdemeanors and the punishment is usually confession. We have to remember that here supernormal powers are also included under the category of attainment. If I recall correctly the particular rule in question was formulated because a lay person was encouraging monks to perform a magical feat - bringing down a bowl from a high place or something in order to be fed from a rather delicious banquet. The meaning is to prevent monks with attainments from profiting off of them. It's quite easy to envision a scenario whereby an elite clique of magical monks would be receiving the lions share of a town's alms, while other monks who had not the will or capacity would go hungry.

Regarding a monk declaring his attainments to another monk, there is no offense provided the attainment is real. Concerning the parajika offense of a false claim to attainment, there is no offense should the claimer be simply over estimating himself, or if he is temporarily insane - hallucinating from a fever or something. That's how I remember it anyway.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:08 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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BlackBird
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:32 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Ben
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:40 pm

Thank you Bhante and Jack for your clarifications!
with Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Gong123
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Gong123 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:58 pm

Last edited by Gong123 on Mon May 28, 2012 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rowyourboat
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:23 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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tiltbillings
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:38 pm


Nyana
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Nyana » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:40 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:08 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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tiltbillings
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:17 pm


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Ben
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:25 pm

Greetings Matheesha

I think it would be wise to be highly suspicious of anyone making claims of their enlightenment. In my experience, those making claims are eithercharletains or those suffering from delusions. We can see from Linda Clair's website the claim of enlightenment is an appeal to authority with the purpose of selling spots on her retreats and one-on-one counselling sessions. I don't think Tilt nor anyone else here is suggesting that bodhi is not possible. The issue is that claims of enlightenment are used to take advantage of the gullible.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:06 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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