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"disenchantment" or "revulsion"? - Dhamma Wheel

"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ground
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"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ground » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:40 am


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Goofaholix
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:52 am

That's a very weak definition of revulsion, I'm with Retro on this, see from dictionary.com...

–noun
1.
a strong feeling of repugnance, distaste, or dislike: Cruelty fills me with revulsion.
2.
a sudden and violent change of feeling or response in sentiment, taste, etc.
3.
the act of drawing something back or away.

Looks like a synonym of aversion to me.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:01 am


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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:55 am


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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:57 am


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Aloka
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:06 am


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Adrien
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Adrien » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:49 am

I always agreed with you, but now I'm thinking that it could be a part of the path, and not the fruit. Ultimately, aversion is unskillfull, but maybe there is a stage when we stop craving for sensual pleasures, and start to be disgusted by them. It's far better to be revulsed by the sensual pleasures than attracted. And it may be considered as usefull on the path to renouncement. Then, instead of working on our passion to sensual pleasures, we will have to work with this aversion, and we will progress.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to replace my craving for pleasure by aversion.

Also, I've read that some christian monks use the same vocabulary : "what seemed very nice to me, today I find it to be horrible" (free quotation).
My mother said to me that when she first read that, she thought "this is exagerate", but now, she's starting to feel the same (she's a christian, and practice orthodox meditations).

I found this article quite interesting (though I didn't read all of it) :
He says that revulsion is a better translation than disenchantment.
And here the sutta collection that goes with it :
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:40 am

Perhaps there is room for both...and once more maybe this illustrates the limitations in attempting a one word for word English/Pali translation...

I am revolted by rape.
I am disenchanted by porn.

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Aloka
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:03 am

I am revolted by cruelty to children and animals

I am disenchanted with Santa Claus

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:37 am


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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:22 pm

Antipathy, perhaps dyspathy.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:00 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:19 pm

I've gotten a lot out of reading alternate translations of suttas, something the internet makes much convenient. A thought provoking exercise is to swap out the nouns and adjectives in a passage with words with similar meanings but different connotations.

"Suffering" is a good example. My understanding is that "dukkha" refers to a range of negative emotions from dissatisfaction at one extreme to "suffering" at another. When I think of "suffering" I think of child birth or someone being in a POW camp. Occasionally thinking of "dukkha" as "dissatisfaction" helps me connect my everyday experiences to the suttas.

Swapping "cultivating disenchantment to reduce the hindrances" seems to "connect" with me much more than "cultivating revulsion to uproot the defilements", which sounds like some old anti-life religious, rigid orthodoxy to me.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:24 pm


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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:58 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:05 pm


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Adrien
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Adrien » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:21 pm

When I say "disenchantment", I'm thinking "not fooled anymore", and I would express it as : "it doesn't interest me anymore".

But I'm really wondering if nibbida could be a bit more. What drives common people's lifes is the pleasant and the unpleasant. What drives the people well established in the spiritual path is the wholesome and the unwholesome. It's like a new sort of liking and disliking (they don't "feel" the same about the wholesome and the unwholesome), but totally different, with no craving.

Are the sensual pleasures seen by the spiritual person as "not interesting" (neutral), or as "an undesirable thing" (unwholesome, dangerous) ?

Disenchantment is exactly the same as dispassion, except that what I'm disenchanted at, I once was enchanted by it (which is not necessarly the case for things I'm dispassionated at). But in the present, the feeling is exactly the same.
I would say that the "spiritual person" has this feeling (dispassion) about eating average bread, or walking in a corridor (pure neutral things -> he just doesn't care), while he would have "nibbida" for sensual pleasures, as he has nibbida for killing and stealing. In a way, these people do not "like" killing, they have a kind of repulsion for it, but that doesn't mean there is aversion. In a same way, they could have a kind of repulsion for the sensual pleasures, without any aversion.

__________________
Writing this message made me notice that in the two translations of nibbida, one involves the past while the other doesn't :
- disenchantmant -> in the past, I liked it (but I don't anymore).
- revulsion -> dosen't say anything about the past.
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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Kim OHara
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:46 am

I'm with Retro and others in preferring 'disenchantment'.
To me, 'revulsion' is too close to 'aversion'.
My nearest dictionary gave me 'disillusionment', 'dissatisfaction' and 'world-weariness' as alternatives for 'disenchantment', and they feel about right: knowing that worldly pleasures are limited and temporary, we should stop craving for them, stop thinking that they can solve our dissatisfactions, and look for something better.
The same dictionary gave me 'disgust', 'nausea', 'loathing' and 'aversion' itself as alternatives to 'revulsion'. They are all much stronger words than any in the first group, and they therefore describe a stronger emotional engagement with the object of the feeling. Such an engagement may be a necessary short-term antidote to a strong positive engagement but should be transcended - the long term aim, surely, is dispassion and equanimity, not aversion.

:namaste:
Kim

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ground
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ground » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:21 am

Interesting comments ... but still ... I think I cannot agree with the predominant view which seems to express that 'disgust', 'nausea', 'loathing' amd 'aversion' are "wrong" in the first place, i.e. "naturally wrong".

In other contexts the Buddha e.g. accepted as a good qualities those that are considered "wrong" in worldly contexts e.g. "desire" for liberation or "grief" based on a longing for liberation that is not yet attained.

IMO if one feels 'disgust', 'nausea', 'loathing' and even 'aversion' towards the habitual appearance of allure of (inanimate or animate) objects (of mind) because one knows "what is behind the curtain" then this enhances consequent renunciation. What is important however is not to show it to the outside world because it is directed against one's own habits as such (i.e. underlying tendencies of which there is no possessor!!).

Kind regards

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Alex123
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:41 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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