Torma

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Re: Torma

Postby conebeckham » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:06 pm

Great stuff, thanks! I think I have some more pics at home, I'll try to find them and post them.....
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:18 pm

Big Drolo Torma Med.jpg
As an example of a a completed Gotram-- here is a permanent Dudjom Drolo torma made by artists and craftspeople inside Druptra with help from the rest of us unskilled people. In my case, I made breakfast for a couple of the artists after they stayed up all night.
Big Drolo Torma Med.jpg (42.86 KiB) Viewed 1473 times


Shalze medium.jpg
One of our Shalzes. As Greg said above, the general design of this one is pretty universal.
Shalze medium.jpg (49.66 KiB) Viewed 1491 times
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Getting ready for Drupchen--every summer at Pema Osel Ling.jpg
Po gyud, Mo gyud, and probably Drekpa and an Shenpa.
Getting ready for Drupchen--every summer at Pema Osel Ling.jpg (46.65 KiB) Viewed 1461 times
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:21 pm

I have hundreds of photos of tormas from our center. If you have any requests, I can see what I have.
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Re: Torma

Postby conebeckham » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:07 pm

Here's a shrine for KarLing ShiTro, we did several months back.....

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Torma

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:52 am

Oh yes, what is the "Inner Offering" that is sprinkled on the Torma sometimes?

PM if Samaya are involved.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:22 am

Konchog1 wrote:Oh yes, what is the "Inner Offering" that is sprinkled on the Torma sometimes?

PM if Samaya are involved.


Can you be more specific? Do you remember which torma or during which part of the practice? I can think of several things you might be talking about.
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Re: Torma

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:33 am

Sometimes it also seems to be called nectar.

Here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/teac ... bklta4.pdf

Page 41
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Torma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:05 am

Men or Dudtsi. If you do not have kapala offerings on your altar then you will not have this substance anyway. It's not necessary for you to do this, just sprinkle the torma with kusha grass dipped in water whilst reciting OM AH HUNG to purify the torma offering.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Torma

Postby username » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:41 am

His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Discusses Torma Shapes and Colors


Another video about tormas on a blog about him:
http://the17thkarmapa.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... ormas.html

Torma film:
http://tormafilm.org/index.html

May the 14th Dalai Lama & the 17th Karmapa live extremely long in good health & great success.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:45 am

Konchog1 wrote:Sometimes it also seems to be called nectar.

Here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/teac ... bklta4.pdf

Page 41


I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.

Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.
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Re: Torma

Postby MalaBeads » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:11 am

Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.

Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:46 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.

Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".


I think you mean an eastern equivalent of art therapy. I've never done art therapy.

There seem to be three aspects of dough tormas, in addition to the traditional explanations.

The first is as a lived-through experience of making them before a practice; most commonly a group practice or retreat. That experience involves replicating a specific art object. It involves taking a shapeless, colorless, mass and turning it into something symetical, smooth, often colorful, mysterious, and symbolically linked to the practice you will be doing. It is a mindfulness practice,a transitional step between worldy activities and tantric practice, so it is like a little ngondro to settle the mind so you can be present for the main practice to follow.

The second is the experience of the people who do not make the tormas, but see them set up on a shrine. For them, there is a sense that someone prepared the space for the practice, made it more beautiful, and that the engine of the bus of group tantric practice has warmed up and that the loppon and the umze' are about to drive everyone forward together.

The third is that, in general, the dough tormas are perishable. A reminder of the significance that this is the time to practice seriously--like a timer. It says "everything has come together for a profound spiritual experience. Wake up! Wake up!"

Is that art therapy?
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Re: Torma

Postby conebeckham » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:51 pm

Yudron wrote:I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.

Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.


In Sarma, and in some Nyingma sadhanas I'm familiar with, we often see three offerings--dudtsi (Amrita), Men (medicine), and Rakta. Dudtsi is the "Inner Offering," (Nangcho), and is often included on the shrine, in a kapala, and also in a kapala in the practitioner's table. "Men" and "Rakta" are not customarily placed in front of the practitionr, but only in front of the Tentor or other deity representation. Actually, many Sarma practices don't include "Men," but only Dudtsi and Rakta. Some have only Dudtsi.
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Re: Torma

Postby MalaBeads » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Yudron wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.

Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".


I think you mean an eastern equivalent of art therapy. I've never done art therapy.

There seem to be three aspects of dough tormas, in addition to the traditional explanations.

The first is as a lived-through experience of making them before a practice; most commonly a group practice or retreat. That experience involves replicating a specific art object. It involves taking a shapeless, colorless, mass and turning it into something symetical, smooth, often colorful, mysterious, and symbolically linked to the practice you will be doing. It is a mindfulness practice,a transitional step between worldy activities and tantric practice, so it is like a little ngondro to settle the mind so you can be present for the main practice to follow.

The second is the experience of the people who do not make the tormas, but see them set up on a shrine. For them, there is a sense that someone prepared the space for the practice, made it more beautiful, and that the engine of the bus of group tantric practice has warmed up and that the loppon and the umze' are about to drive everyone forward together.

The third is that, in general, the dough tormas are perishable. A reminder of the significance that this is the time to practice seriously--like a timer. It says "everything has come together for a profound spiritual experience. Wake up! Wake up!"

Is that art therapy?


Yes, the eastern (thanks!) equivalent. And as you describe it above, maybe group therapy too. You could also say, not the same, not different.

Look, what did the Buddha say he was doing? He basically said (taking into consideration translation problems and time): I teach one thing and one thing only: the end of suffering.

I like that Tibetans, before they became "Buddhists" referred to themselves as "inner people". Because that's what I see as everyone's work, the inner work of ending suffering. Isn't that what you're doing? That's what I'm doing.

And there are a zillion (slight exaggeration!) methods for doing this work. Vajrayana Buddhism has some extremely profound, not to mention deep, methods for getting at the roots of our suffering. :woohoo:

I have always been somewhat mystified by most of these methods, however, because frankly, they seem foreign to me. And they are. No problem with that. I did not grow up in a Tibetan culture. Most Tibetans did not grow up in a western culture.

We are all not the same and not different. But if you are practicing, you are doing the work of ending suffering. And by ending suffering in yourself, somehow, by the very nature of our innate goodness, we express it by helping others end their suffering.

My interest has never been "getting enlightened". I really have no idea what "enlightened" is. Vajrayana has this "promise" of enlightenment in one lifetime. Nonetheless, thanks for your admonishment to "wake up now".

Frankly, I'm as awake as I can stand to be.
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:27 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Yudron wrote:I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.

Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.


In Sarma, and in some Nyingma sadhanas I'm familiar with, we often see three offerings--dudtsi (Amrita), Men (medicine), and Rakta. Dudtsi is the "Inner Offering," (Nangcho), and is often included on the shrine, in a kapala, and also in a kapala in the practitioner's table. "Men" and "Rakta" are not customarily placed in front of the practitionr, but only in front of the Tentor or other deity representation. Actually, many Sarma practices don't include "Men," but only Dudtsi and Rakta. Some have only Dudtsi.


Huh, my observation is that there are only two kapalas on the Nyingma shrine, man and rakta. That is unless you were doing a ceremony making mendrup, I guess. It sounds like you have seen otherwise at a Nyingma temple, and I don't doubt you, but I never have. They do not sit in front of the practitioner. Our men is made from dudtsi or mendrup and alcohol. It sits on the shrine right. The nang cho that sits in front of the loppon is the same mixture as the men on the shrine.

I'm sponsoring a translation of Kongtrul's best text on preparing dzey, but the translator probably won't get to it for another year or two. Curious I am.
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Re: Torma

Postby heart » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:33 pm

I have one men on my practice table and an other as part of the inner offerings, men tor and rakta, on the altar. I don't really know how to do tormas so I use digestives. I am not much of a Ngakpa I guess.

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Re: Torma

Postby conebeckham » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 pm

An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.

But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
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Re: Torma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:17 am

conebeckham wrote:An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.

But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
Well, when you find the answer please fill in those that wish to know, maybe via PM? I have noticed this discrepancy myself and would like to know the answer.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Torma

Postby Yudron » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:09 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
conebeckham wrote:An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.

But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
Well, when you find the answer please fill in those that wish to know, maybe via PM? I have noticed this discrepancy myself and would like to know the answer.
:namaste:


Me, too. I just consulted the biggest ritual geek I know, and he had never seen a dudtsi kapala on a Nyingma or Kagyu Shrine. But clearly we are missing something.
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