Torma
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5717
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Torma
Great stuff, thanks! I think I have some more pics at home, I'll try to find them and post them.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5717
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Torma
Here's a shrine for KarLing ShiTro, we did several months back.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Torma
Oh yes, what is the "Inner Offering" that is sprinkled on the Torma sometimes?
PM if Samaya are involved.
PM if Samaya are involved.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: Torma
Can you be more specific? Do you remember which torma or during which part of the practice? I can think of several things you might be talking about.Konchog1 wrote:Oh yes, what is the "Inner Offering" that is sprinkled on the Torma sometimes?
PM if Samaya are involved.
Re: Torma
Sometimes it also seems to be called nectar.
Here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/teac ... bklta4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Page 41
Here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/teac ... bklta4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Page 41
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: Torma
Men or Dudtsi. If you do not have kapala offerings on your altar then you will not have this substance anyway. It's not necessary for you to do this, just sprinkle the torma with kusha grass dipped in water whilst reciting OM AH HUNG to purify the torma offering.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Torma
His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Discusses Torma Shapes and Colors
Another video about tormas on a blog about him:
http://the17thkarmapa.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... ormas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Torma film:
http://tormafilm.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May the 14th Dalai Lama & the 17th Karmapa live extremely long in good health & great success.
Another video about tormas on a blog about him:
http://the17thkarmapa.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... ormas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Torma film:
http://tormafilm.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May the 14th Dalai Lama & the 17th Karmapa live extremely long in good health & great success.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
Re: Torma
I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.Konchog1 wrote:Sometimes it also seems to be called nectar.
Here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/teac ... bklta4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Page 41
Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.
Re: Torma
Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.
Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".
Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Re: Torma
I think you mean an eastern equivalent of art therapy. I've never done art therapy.MalaBeads wrote:Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.
Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".
There seem to be three aspects of dough tormas, in addition to the traditional explanations.
The first is as a lived-through experience of making them before a practice; most commonly a group practice or retreat. That experience involves replicating a specific art object. It involves taking a shapeless, colorless, mass and turning it into something symetical, smooth, often colorful, mysterious, and symbolically linked to the practice you will be doing. It is a mindfulness practice,a transitional step between worldy activities and tantric practice, so it is like a little ngondro to settle the mind so you can be present for the main practice to follow.
The second is the experience of the people who do not make the tormas, but see them set up on a shrine. For them, there is a sense that someone prepared the space for the practice, made it more beautiful, and that the engine of the bus of group tantric practice has warmed up and that the loppon and the umze' are about to drive everyone forward together.
The third is that, in general, the dough tormas are perishable. A reminder of the significance that this is the time to practice seriously--like a timer. It says "everything has come together for a profound spiritual experience. Wake up! Wake up!"
Is that art therapy?
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5717
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Torma
In Sarma, and in some Nyingma sadhanas I'm familiar with, we often see three offerings--dudtsi (Amrita), Men (medicine), and Rakta. Dudtsi is the "Inner Offering," (Nangcho), and is often included on the shrine, in a kapala, and also in a kapala in the practitioner's table. "Men" and "Rakta" are not customarily placed in front of the practitionr, but only in front of the Tentor or other deity representation. Actually, many Sarma practices don't include "Men," but only Dudtsi and Rakta. Some have only Dudtsi.Yudron wrote:I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.
Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Torma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFEQPtGOCpQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJrwMj4ub0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rz2wC9OqE0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJrwMj4ub0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rz2wC9OqE0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Torma
Yes, the eastern (thanks!) equivalent. And as you describe it above, maybe group therapy too. You could also say, not the same, not different.Yudron wrote:I think you mean an eastern equivalent of art therapy. I've never done art therapy.MalaBeads wrote:Seems like the western equivalent of art therapy to me. Vivid, profound and not trivial. However, I do not understand any of it at all. Nor do I feel a need to.
Many thanks for the tour through "torma 101".
There seem to be three aspects of dough tormas, in addition to the traditional explanations.
The first is as a lived-through experience of making them before a practice; most commonly a group practice or retreat. That experience involves replicating a specific art object. It involves taking a shapeless, colorless, mass and turning it into something symetical, smooth, often colorful, mysterious, and symbolically linked to the practice you will be doing. It is a mindfulness practice,a transitional step between worldy activities and tantric practice, so it is like a little ngondro to settle the mind so you can be present for the main practice to follow.
The second is the experience of the people who do not make the tormas, but see them set up on a shrine. For them, there is a sense that someone prepared the space for the practice, made it more beautiful, and that the engine of the bus of group tantric practice has warmed up and that the loppon and the umze' are about to drive everyone forward together.
The third is that, in general, the dough tormas are perishable. A reminder of the significance that this is the time to practice seriously--like a timer. It says "everything has come together for a profound spiritual experience. Wake up! Wake up!"
Is that art therapy?
Look, what did the Buddha say he was doing? He basically said (taking into consideration translation problems and time): I teach one thing and one thing only: the end of suffering.
I like that Tibetans, before they became "Buddhists" referred to themselves as "inner people". Because that's what I see as everyone's work, the inner work of ending suffering. Isn't that what you're doing? That's what I'm doing.
And there are a zillion (slight exaggeration!) methods for doing this work. Vajrayana Buddhism has some extremely profound, not to mention deep, methods for getting at the roots of our suffering.
I have always been somewhat mystified by most of these methods, however, because frankly, they seem foreign to me. And they are. No problem with that. I did not grow up in a Tibetan culture. Most Tibetans did not grow up in a western culture.
We are all not the same and not different. But if you are practicing, you are doing the work of ending suffering. And by ending suffering in yourself, somehow, by the very nature of our innate goodness, we express it by helping others end their suffering.
My interest has never been "getting enlightened". I really have no idea what "enlightened" is. Vajrayana has this "promise" of enlightenment in one lifetime. Nonetheless, thanks for your admonishment to "wake up now".
Frankly, I'm as awake as I can stand to be.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Re: Torma
Huh, my observation is that there are only two kapalas on the Nyingma shrine, man and rakta. That is unless you were doing a ceremony making mendrup, I guess. It sounds like you have seen otherwise at a Nyingma temple, and I don't doubt you, but I never have. They do not sit in front of the practitioner. Our men is made from dudtsi or mendrup and alcohol. It sits on the shrine right. The nang cho that sits in front of the loppon is the same mixture as the men on the shrine.conebeckham wrote:In Sarma, and in some Nyingma sadhanas I'm familiar with, we often see three offerings--dudtsi (Amrita), Men (medicine), and Rakta. Dudtsi is the "Inner Offering," (Nangcho), and is often included on the shrine, in a kapala, and also in a kapala in the practitioner's table. "Men" and "Rakta" are not customarily placed in front of the practitionr, but only in front of the Tentor or other deity representation. Actually, many Sarma practices don't include "Men," but only Dudtsi and Rakta. Some have only Dudtsi.Yudron wrote:I see what you are talking about in this text (by a controversial author). I think the word "inner offering" refers to a third kapala of men that sits in front of you if you are playing the role of Dorje Loppon, called the nang chö in Tibetan. It sounds like, in your tradition the person in this role dips the third finger in the nang chö, raises the hand and flicks it toward the outer offering substances on the shrine. As my lama says, countless thankas have been ruined this way--from droplets tossed about the shrine room via this method--for this reason some lamas don't really touch the men liquid, but go through the symbolic motions of this activity.
Other places, where they just use the word nectar, it refers to the men in one of the two kapalas on a tantric shrine.
I'm sponsoring a translation of Kongtrul's best text on preparing dzey, but the translator probably won't get to it for another year or two. Curious I am.
Re: Torma
I have one men on my practice table and an other as part of the inner offerings, men tor and rakta, on the altar. I don't really know how to do tormas so I use digestives. I am not much of a Ngakpa I guess.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5717
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Torma
An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.
But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Torma
Well, when you find the answer please fill in those that wish to know, maybe via PM? I have noticed this discrepancy myself and would like to know the answer.conebeckham wrote:An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.
But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Torma
Me, too. I just consulted the biggest ritual geek I know, and he had never seen a dudtsi kapala on a Nyingma or Kagyu Shrine. But clearly we are missing something.gregkavarnos wrote:Well, when you find the answer please fill in those that wish to know, maybe via PM? I have noticed this discrepancy myself and would like to know the answer.conebeckham wrote:An outstanding question, and one that perhaps we can't discuss on-line...in some cases I see "Men" and "Dudtsi" as equivalent, with "Rakta" as separate. This appears to be the common Nyingma way. Then we see the "three" offerings--Men/Rak/Balingta.
But we sometimes see "Dudtsi" and "Men" separate. Thus, a kapala of Dudtsi, a "MenTor," and a kapala of "Rakta." Sometimes there is no "Mentor," and sometimes there is no "Rakta," especially in Sarma. Often we have a "Dudsti" offering and a Torma Offering, but no "Men," per se, and no "rakta." In general, I think Rakta is a wrathful deity's offering, but not sure about all of this..... I wonder about the possible reasons for this....will have to investigate further!