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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Quite a few mosques, often with muslims in them, are destroyed by other muslims,
or people who call themselves muslims.

...and that is really what it's about. self-labeling identity, which is a mental fantasy, and then attributing one's actions to that fantasy rather than taking responsibility oneself.
Someone calls himself a muslim, or a buddhist, or whatever.
what does that mean?
"this is what I am and this is what it means and this is what it stands for" and blah blah blah
so don't blame me because i am just part of something else.

You can call yourself whatever you want and find any passage in your holy books...qu'ran, torah, new testament, rig veda, tantras, pali canon, lotus sutra, whatever, and interpret those words to justify your actions. any actions.

And if you do not know the context in which some words were spoken or written, and you see that a crime was committed in the name of a religion, you see those words and say, "see...here it is...right there in their holy book!"

But it is a pointless criticism.
You can point to Islam and say it is rotten if you like,
but what will you accomplish? Are you going to get rid of it?
Really?
Are also you going to get rid of the millions of muslims in the world who do not support killing and terrorism?
What exactly is your solution?
.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:50 pm 
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I think there are many good Muslims in the world. I have a lot of respect for the various Sufi orders, particularly the Mevlevi and Chishti. I simply feel that, while Muslims and Sufis in particular may promote love and tolerance, they simply don't understand that this isn't what Muhammad would do. (Granted, Muhammad did have a firm sense of justice and did good for many people, but his inconsistency in doing good and pairing it with, for example, murder and torture speaks a lot about the man's convictions, in my personal opinion.) The ideology and philsophy of Islam is subversive, dis-compassionate, and after reading the Qur'an and major hadith collections it is easy to see why every day news headiness feature Muslims killing, torturing or discriminating against non-Muslims, especially in Nigeria and Egypt. Though the Bible is much like the Qur'an in terms of its insistence upon the superiority of believers and dehumanization of disbelievers, Christianity was radically changed by the enlightenment and secularization. Most Christians simply look at those passages in the Bible that they don't like to be vestigial remnants from a historical or cultural context that's out of date and isn't necessary to find salvation in Christ (much the same way I personally view the issue of siddhis and other superstitions in the Buddhist texts, and how those really apply to enlightenment). That can't be said for a lot of Muslims, who are still quite conservative and interpret the Qur'an literally, many of whom are far more socially conservative than the most conservative Christians in the Bible belt. I think that maybe one day Islam might really be peaceful but it would be silly to say that a religion that is so divisive -- like any Abrahamic religion -- is ultimately "peaceful" at this point in time. Muslims can certainly be peaceful people, but I would argue that their religious texts simply don't reflect this (the idea that Islam is ultimately a peaceful religion). That's all.

I think that this video explains a lot about the dynamics of the Qur'an and how it differs from other religious texts through self-reference (I don't agree with everything in this video, but it makes a couple good points regarding religious texts):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w


How PadmaVonSamba (clever name btw) or whatever seemed to get the idea that I want to personally rid the world of 1.5 billion Muslims I'm not sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:24 pm 
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I just don't think it is a culturalism that in most Muslim-majority countries blasphemy and apostasy are illegal, a person can be fined or jailed for them, and that in a number of Muslim countries a person can be killed for converting to another religion after being a Muslim. Apostasy, or riddah (ردة‎) is something Muhammad himself said a person should be killed for.

Within the Sahih al-Bukhari collection, worldy punishments are described in the following Hadith:

"2171. Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh) and that I am the Messenger of Allâh, cannot be shed except in three cases: 1. Life for life (in cases of intentional murders without right i.e., in Al-Qisas - Law of Equality in punishment); 2. A married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse; and 3. The one who turns renegade from Islâm (apostate) and leaves the group of Muslims (by innovating heresy, new ideas and new things etc. in the Islâmic religion). (See Fatḥ Al-Bâri, Vol. 15, Page 220 for details)]. [9:17-O.B]"[47]

I find this very anti-intellectual:

"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102)

I don't think it is just a culturalism that church bombings occur all the time in Egypt and Nigeria.
I don't think it is just a culturalism that Muhammad said after one his caravan raids (in which his followers and perhaps himself looted from innocent people and raped women -- who by the way Muhammad gave as female slaves to many of the men in his merry band), “I have been made victorious with terror”. [Bukhari 4:52:220]

Look, as a person who is attracted to Buddhism for its compassion, wisdom and loving-kindness, how can I accept these Islamic doctrines as being fit for a world in desperate need of love and relief from suffering? Does no one understand that a person coming from a Buddhist leaning or perspective might be a little unnerved by these ideologies? Is that SO bad?

At least when in the feudal system of Tibet punishments like amputation were dished out in order to avoid killing because killing was considered against Buddhism, Buddhists today can see why even so torture itself is anti-Buddhist... quite clearly.

Amputations for thieves are PRESCRIBED in the Qur'an, and thus it is perfectly legal to mutilate the body of a person if they commit theft in Islam.
This article on WikiIslam discuses amputating hands for thievery, and gives various sheikhs and imam's interpretations.

"[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise." Qur'an 5;38 (Surat Al-Ma'idah)

Ok... so in an act of mercy, some compassionate Muslim scholars believe it is OK to give anesthesia when removing the hand surgically and then re-attach it if the thief repents. Wow. That really scintillates with 21st century logic, morality and reasoning. Is that moving forward?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Okay Ikkyu, apart from hate mongering, do you have anything positive to add to the thread?
:namaste:
PS Need I remind you of the scintillating 21st century logic, morality and reasoning that moves US society forward known as the death penalty?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Always when Muslims do something bad then at once there are many defending them... like ''those are not true Muslims'', well so who is a true Muslim? This religion is repeatedly creating hatred, outrageous killing etc.
And what they did in Bangladesh is a criminal act and should be treated as such. If they hate so much others they will be hated by others as well... one day someone will destroy their temples, and their religion... it is only a matter of time...
It has nothing to do with XXI century ''morality'' because nations involved in morality and reasoning or ban on death penalty are most troublesome countries which keep under control most of the world and destroy economy, as well as making wars in which hundreds of thousands and millions are killed.. mostly innocent..
Muslims hate? So they will be ''hated'', does not matter who will do something bad to them, Christians, Buddhists or nonbelievers. They are just sowing seeds of their own destruction... they will be hated, feared, killed and destroyed as well as their religion.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Ironically, it is precisely this "painting everyone with the same brush" mentality, like "they hate us, they invade us, they persecute us" that drives the extremists and the mobs. Now we see it applied to Muslim people too. While an undereducated person living in a semi medieval culture can be forgiven for thinking like that, what about an educated well-to-do Buddhist practitioner living in a first world country?

As for reading the Koran and drawing conclusions, did you consider the context, the society it was composed in, the constraints Mohammed operated under as both a secular and religious leader, or did you read it as if it was a modern document? Because this what I have seen people do time and again and come to similar conclusions.

Oldbob, I am not really active on Facebook, so one thing that stops me is ignorance of the medium.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Always when Muslims do something bad then at once there are many defending them...

...they will be hated, feared, killed and destroyed as well as their religion.


"THEM"

That's the problem.
You say "when Muslims do something bad then at once there are many defending them"
This statement suggests that all Muslims are doing bad things. You may deny that this is what you meant to say,
but let me try to explain the flaw in that statement.
It contains two elements:
1. Muslims
2. people who do something bad

Now, while it is true that muslims who do bad things are still muslims,
not all people who do bad things are muslims,
and not all muslims do bad things.
that statement suggests that people who defend muslims are automatically defending muslims who do bad things.

One can defend muslims and yet not defend people who do bad things.

Consider that all people who do bad things are humans.
Now, consider what your statement would look like if it were applied to all people:
"when humans do something bad then at once there are many defending them"

There is plenty of historical evidence to prove that all humans are bad. Even non-muslim humans.
humans overall have a much worse record than muslims specifically.
Do you think I should defend humans?

If you do not personally know or have friends of a certain ethnic or religious group,
then it is natural to assume gross generalizations about those people.
That is what happened to jews in Germany and to the Japanese Americans in the United States in WW2.

Think of somebody you know, who is a friend of yours, who is of a different religion, nationality, skin color or ethinic background than you are (assuming and hoping you have one).

now suppose you read in the newspaper that somebody who has the same ethnicity or whatever, as your friend, murders a group of people. Would you suddenly distrust your friend? Would you say that all the people who have the same ethnicity as your friend are likely to be murderers?
No. At least i would think not.
And why not?
Because you know somebody who is of that ethnicity, and your friend isn't a murderer. So you would defend your friend. You would say, 'no, they are not all like that". You have proof from your own experience that all people who share your friend's ethnicity are not the same.

But suppose that the only faces of people of a certain ethnic group are the angry faces you see on the TV news,
and you did not know any personally, not as friends.
Then it is very easy to assume that they are all like that.

Suppose you see on TV a riot with thousands of angry muslims shouting "Death to America"
...you might think that all muslims hate America.

now, suppose you see on TV a riot with thousands of people occupying Wall Street shouting "down with capitalism!!!"
would you now assume that all Americans hate capitalism?
I will tell you something...most Americans love capitalism.

i am not defending people who do bad things, and i am not defending Islam.

But it is easy to form negative attitudes based on what we don't know as well as what we do know.
not knowing something is called ignorance.

I think buddhists should be careful about clinging to ignorance.
.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:36 am 
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I would like to add something to my previous comment.
When I was growing up, there were a lot of people, families, in my neighborhood that were from a particular regional cultural background. In my experience, they tended to be violent, noisy, dirty and uneducated. Even so, as a kid, we often played together.

So, if in one's personal experience, one encounters mostly negative situations, one may be quite justified in holding very negative opinions about certain people (as a group) even though these opinions may not be entirely accurate. There is often a lot of truth to cultural stereotypes, and they shouldn't be ignored altogether. But we are usually only exposed to a fraction of reality at a time.

As I grew up, I discovered that quite a large number of my friends and people i liked to associate were also, as it turned out, from this segment of the population that I had always found to be so offensive. But they were well educated, clean, and very peaceful and friendly people.

I must confess, I still hold some of the negative opinions (regarding this group of people) that I grew up with. But at least I now recognize that this feeling I have is merely my own mental baggage. I understand that these views were based on what little I had been exposed to, in the small neighborhood where I grew up. I still see the problems I observed as a child, but I have a better understanding of things, that these problems have causes and that cycles of behavior can be very hard to stop.

Before we simply condemn people or the beliefs they hold (and yes, there are some pretty messed-up beliefs out there, in my opinion), we need to remember that things arise interdependently. "US" and "THEM" are both part of a bigger picture, and we are creating realities for each other. It is a dance we are both dancing together. Regardless of what someone advocates as a response to terrible acts of violence, we have to begin with this understanding.
.
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:00 pm 
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:namaste:

:good: :good: :good:

:thanks:

All good postings.

But the question remains, how can we, good hearted, people on DW, do something now, to make things better?

Please try to think of solutions that will affect many people and also maybe think in long time lines. :thinking:

Best, :smile:

ob


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Things will not get better. True Dharma has been in decline for over a millenia. Even our own scriptures predict that materialist philosophies and the "Mohamadeans" will end up conquering the entire world.

Societies don't necessarily evolve into better ones. Evolution can be in any direction. Buddhism has repeatedly proven to be insufficiently diligent in protecting itself. Humans are devolving into something more violent and selfish.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Nemo wrote:
Things will not get better. True Dharma has been in decline for over a millenia. Even our own scriptures predict that materialist philosophies and the "Mohamadeans" will end up conquering the entire world.

Societies don't necessarily evolve into better ones. Evolution can be in any direction. Buddhism has repeatedly proven to be insufficiently diligent in protecting itself. Humans are devolving into something more violent and selfish.


Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here!

Nemo - could you please cite the scripture that predicts 'the "Mohamadeans" will end up conquering the entire world'?

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:02 pm 
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viniketa wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Even our own scriptures predict that materialist philosophies and the "Mohamadeans" will end up conquering the entire world.

Societies don't necessarily evolve into better ones. Evolution can be in any direction. Buddhism has repeatedly proven to be insufficiently diligent in protecting itself. Humans are devolving into something more violent and selfish.



Nemo - could you please cite the scripture that predicts 'the "Mohamadeans" will end up conquering the entire world'?


The Kalachakra of course. Whether one accepts the prophecy as accurate or not and specific to some form of religion with pretension to following the lineage of Muhammad is another matter. The Kalachakra is also an exponent of complete religious tolerance.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Well people can continue their nice bubbling about nice Muslims and our inability to understand them.. if so why you do not allow in your own society same behavior, but prosecute it? Why you do not defend those who are a real threat to security, normal life etc.? Do you like so much islamic mobs? Just invite them to your home show your nice Buddhist altar... for the mob will be happy :)

Mob is a mob and criminal is a criminal... if you would like to leave the alone and act, then do it. Western ''correctness'' creates funny effects. Why you do not use same standards to other groups?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:25 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
The Kalachakra of course. Whether one accepts the prophecy as accurate or not and specific to some form of religion with pretension to following the lineage of Muhammad is another matter.


The Kalachakra makes no mention of Mohammed nor Islam.

kirtu wrote:
The Kalachakra is also an exponent of complete religious tolerance.


Of course. Something to do with Buddha, I understand...

Matylda wrote:
Western ''correctness'' creates funny effects. Why you do not use same standards to other groups?


Who cares about "Western correctness"? Buddhist standards should be applied to all groups, as Buddha makes clear:

Quote:
He behaves for the good of both: Himself and the other person. Knowing well the other's anger, He is mindful and remains calm. In this way he is healing both: Himself and the other person. The people who think "He's a fool," Just don't understand the dhamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html


I recommend the entire sutta for reading. It's short.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Well people can continue their nice bubbling about nice Muslims and our inability to understand them.. if so why you do not allow in your own society same behavior, but prosecute it? Why you do not defend those who are a real threat to security, normal life etc.? Do you like so much islamic mobs? Just invite them to your home show your nice Buddhist altar... for the mob will be happy :)

Mob is a mob and criminal is a criminal... if you would like to leave the alone and act, then do it. Western ''correctness'' creates funny effects. Why you do not use same standards to other groups?
Here are some nice pictures of Buddhist mob violence against Rohingya Muslims in Burma, be warned the pictures are graphic as hell
https://www.google.com/search?q=rohinga ... 80&bih=685

Unfortunately a mob is a mob regardless of their religion.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Well people can continue their nice bubbling about nice Muslims and our inability to understand them.. if so why you do not allow in your own society same behavior, but prosecute it? Why you do not defend those who are a real threat to security, normal life etc.? Do you like so much islamic mobs? Just invite them to your home show your nice Buddhist altar... for the mob will be happy :)

Mob is a mob and criminal is a criminal... if you would like to leave the alone and act, then do it. Western ''correctness'' creates funny effects. Why you do not use same standards to other groups?


So, if you have zero tolerance for all muslims,
maybe you are a muslim, because muslims invented the number zero.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Matylda wrote:
Well people can continue their nice bubbling about nice Muslims and our inability to understand them.

nobody is doing that.
Quote:
if so why you do not allow in your own society same behavior,

which behavior...religion, or violence?
Quote:
Why you do not defend those who are a real threat to security,

why would I defend people who threaten my security?
Quote:
Do you like so much islamic mobs?

...compared to what other kind of mob?
Quote:
Why you do not use same standards to other groups?

i always do.
do you?
.
.
.

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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:26 pm 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
So, if you have zero tolerance for all muslims,
maybe you are a muslim, because muslims invented the number zero.


???


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:34 pm 
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So, if you have zero tolerance for all muslims,
maybe you are a muslim, because muslims invented the number zero.[/quote]

Muslims didn't invent zero, the concept was developed by medieval Hindu and Buddhist mathematicians. The Arabs adopted the decimal system they found in India.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:02 am 
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nilakantha wrote:
So, if you have zero tolerance for all muslims,
maybe you are a muslim, because muslims invented the number zero.


Muslims didn't invent zero, the concept was developed by medieval Hindu and Buddhist mathematicians. The Arabs adopted the decimal system they found in India.[/quote]

Hmmmm. ReaLLY? I stand corrected.

how about al-jebra (algebra)?
.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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