rob h wrote:Have been kind of loathe to bring this back up, but to be honest I also think a point should be made : the whole idea of arguing, sectarianism and negativity towards eachother when discussing the difference between schools seems like a clear sign that as we do this we're caught in delusion.
Sometimes insight seems to work better than other times, and at the moment [insert word(s.) Either "I think," "I feel," it "seems like," but they're just words and can't convey properly.] each school is just approaching the primordial/mind in a different way if it's being done properly. Have always been fascinated with the idea of the primordial ever since reading about Dzogchen, and have often thought about its relation to Zen and Yogacara, the two that I've spent most time with. If someone says Dzogchen is the highest path because it introduces you to your primordial nature instantly, then you go onwards and work to maintain that, then that's fine by me. I won't think it's better or worse than Yogacara or Zen if done properly, but can accept that it's maybe the best method at introducing you to the primordial state from the start.
At the same time though I'd say that a good enough Zen master, or a good enough Yogacarin, with the right student, could introduce awakening/the primordial/suchness and so on equally as fast, but it's maybe very rare and that Dzogchen does it more consistently from the off. (my own issue though is that you can have the best Dzogchen teacher, but if the student isn't ready there's still going to be difficulties in maintaining that state.) In the end though I think it's the same state with different terms that we arrive at if it's done properly, and that's why I often laugh at the arguments or just shake my head at them, because I think we're using different schools for the reason that we're different people, with different karma, different learning speeds, different living circumstances, and different styles of approaching awakening.
I'm not saying anything I've just written is "right," just wanted to add my own take on it in the hope that it'd maybe help one or more get past some of the negativity.
rob h, all and All,
AND that's MR. Delusion, to you, please.
I have NEVER understood how, when talking about what cannot be talked about, how there can ANY smallest judgement as to which path is higher or lower.
All you can say, if you have to say anything, is which path resonates most, (is most meaningful) to YOU, at a certain moment in time. We are each a swirling developing dynamic of (ultimately empty) karmic forces, and what is the best path for me, at one time in my life, is not the best path at another. If this is true for me, how can I even begin to say what is the best path for another, at a certain moment in time. Maybe a realized omniscient Master can say this, but I certainly can't.
For me, and I am the ONLY one whom I apply this to, Dzogchen is the "highest" path because, for me, it can include, explain and allow for, all other paths. Dzogchen does not limit me to any particular path of practice or philosophical view. For me, this is what "Great Completion," Great Accomplishment" and "Great Symbol," means. In Dzogchen, all my experience can be integrated with natural mind. If some other, path were to show itself that was, in my view, higher than Dzogchen, then I would call myself a follower of that other view. So really maybe the name of my school is, "The provisionally held, highest view of the moment, school" So yes, - this feels good. I am, "Mr. provisionally held, highest view of the moment," and maybe we are all, truly, like this.
In a non-naming truth, resting in the natural mind, I don't call (or not call) myself anything, and could not, even if I wanted to.
and I might sing the song of the vajra, as a way of demonstrating integration with movement.
All this knocks down to, "work out your path with diligence." And this is true, even if your path is the "totally perfect from the beginning, and spontaneously arising," path of Dzogchen, and you relax into it through non-striving. You still need to be aware of when you are not in the state and (non) apply
appropriate practice, (non) diligently.
You cannot create or construct, the natural state, so it is really tricky how you talk about this.
This all knocks down to - to keep on topic - ; the Doctrine of the Holy Yogachara is perfect, the Doctrine of the Holy Dzogchen is perfect, but MY Doctrine of the "Provisionally held highest view of the moment" is the most perfect of all, and so is yours.
Wow - that's a lot of words.
Lord Buddha taught the 84,000 (means a lot of) different teachings so that there would be something for everyone.
Thank you Lord Buddha, and the precious Masters, of all sacred traditions, who keep the living light of enlightenment alive, by teaching in this world, today.
Homage to the enlightened Masters, of all traditions, who teach the
of the matter! May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.