Zen has No Morals

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oushi
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:12 pm

Say what you think about me

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Astus
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:23 pm

The Bodhidharma quote was about false visions of buddhas, not ethical conduct.

Ideas of self and owner are rejected and refuted by all Buddhist schools under the teaching of selflessness. How is that subject relevant here? Or, as Wumen asks, "Why should you ask whether you recognize him or not?"
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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oushi
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:38 pm

Say what you think about me

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Astus
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:59 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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oushi
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:14 pm

I don't know, what you don't know.
Say what you think about me

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Alex123
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:37 am

From what I understand, "Zen has no morals" has to be taken in cultural context. From what I've read, in China and Japan there is/was a very strong ethical culture due to Confucianism. So I guess it was expected that a person would already be conditioned in behaving a certain rigid way. So there was no need to hammer in ethics in Zen... In fact, teaching less clinging to rigid ethical rules and regulations might have been a good middle way for them.

It is different in America, though.

Just my 2 cents.
Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks can find its way to the ocean"

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby KeithA » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:15 pm


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Matt J
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Matt J » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:29 pm

The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming


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Alex123
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Alex123 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:45 pm

Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks can find its way to the ocean"

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:21 pm

I haven't read this yet, but it might be relevant:

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Matylda » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:35 pm


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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby KeithA » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:03 pm


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Sara H
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sara H » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:17 am

I think there is this tradition in the west to say that an institution or practice must be 100% perfect or else it's trash.

Those are actually two extremes.

On the one hand we expect something to be flawless, (which isn't realistic) and on the other hand when things don't live up to our ideals, we tend to say it's all garbage and discard it. (another extreme, the opposite of running toward perfection, which is running away from reality)

I think this comes out of our response to Christian teachings and their saying that the Bible is 100% perfect, etc, and so is the church, and so on, and our reaction to that.

This is not Christianity, And Buddhism is not the Christian church.

"With the ideal, comes the actual" after all, and we "then compound delusion later on, by following ideals".

Buddhism is about finding a middle way, not following ideals.

Expecting perfection out of an institution, or practice is idealism.

That's not the point of Buddhism, to be an idealistic sense of perfection.

It is rather to be a vehicle and provide a way to training and the cessation of suffering.

Nowhere does it say that all monks or practitioners are going to be perfect simply by virtue of being Buddhists.

This expectation, that we need to find a "savior" is one of the things to let go of in Buddhism.

We train ourselves, and with other people, and with the Eternal, with the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

We are human beings, and Buddhism is for human beings, not for flawless idealistic perceptions of how we think ourselves or other people "should" be.

That's one of the beauty's of Buddhism, is that everybody can do this.

Angulimala was a serial killer, who purportedly killed 999 people and was on his search for his "thousandth" when the Buddha got hold of him.

He later became a disciple.

Even the kind of sexual morality we place on people in the West has it's background in Christianity.

Gasp, someone has hormones and may be sexually attracted to someone.
And some of those people follow through with it.

This is human nature, and humanity.
This is why we train, to better ourselves, not to hold ourselves down and judge ourselves and others when they or we make a mistake.

I think we could all do well to remember this and remember that we too are human beings and have made our share of mistakes.

In Gassho, friends,

Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

Matylda
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Matylda » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:54 pm

Actually Christianity almost criminalized human body.. anyway all confessional religions are pretty against humans, putting extremely strong judgments of good and bad, purity and impurity and they are all related to the body, sexual functions etc. All which are based on Bible, make human being more or less criminal and all are repressive and even able to kill for any deviation from the god's rules... well let it be for those who wish to torture themselves, but in the context of dharma it is a pure nonsense.

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby shel » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:35 am


StuartM
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby StuartM » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:36 am


Matylda
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Matylda » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:25 am

Well, maybe bit extreme.. why not? It is not my opinion.. it is mostly what I have heard from Catholic priests, when talking to them... yes they in the same statement acknowledged some sort of preciousness of life, but all in all it sounded that extreme. I know from my friends, Buddhists converted from Catholic faith what horrors they have, anyway I can see it, with accepting their bodies, needs etc. and how they feel about it.

But having contact with protestant priests and seeing on tv some preachers, well, they were not very positive.. we are sinners :D etc. etc. well maybe it is good for Europeans or Americans, but sounds like bit extreme to one who is a stranger in this culture.

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby StuartM » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:50 am


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seeker242
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby seeker242 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:56 pm

If Zen has no morals, then why do all the zen monks for the past 1,500 years, take precepts vows?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Matylda » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:36 am



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