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There IS suffering? - Dhamma Wheel

There IS suffering?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
rowyourboat
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There IS suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 29, 2011 6:44 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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retrofuturist
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 29, 2011 6:51 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Fede
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Fede » Sun May 29, 2011 7:32 am

Yes, I'm struggling.... :?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

Reductor
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Reductor » Sun May 29, 2011 8:59 am

They differ in that the first asserts there is dukkha but says nothing of its pervasivness while the second says dukkha is all pervasive(assuming that all is anicca).

But i hazard to say that dukkha is being used in decidedly different ways and so differ in how pervasive we should understand them to be.

Consider that the first alludes to the first noble truth. In the first truth it is the five aggregates subject to clinging that are called dukkha.

In the second the buddha says that all that arises and passes away is dukkha. This is a partial restatement of the three marks of existence: anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Now it is accepted that an arahant does not cling, so obviously he does not cling to aggregates and so he does not experience dukkha in the sense implied by the first truth. However an arahant remains percipient of the three marks so long as they continue to live.

So since the first use of dukkha implies clinging while the second doesnt, it seems unnecessary to say that they are equally pervasive

I would say the word dukkha in the second example is best interpreted to mean 'unable to give security' while the word dukkha in the first example suggests the resultant grief in trying to obtain security from something fundamentally unable to.

Or such are the thoughts that leap to mind.

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ground
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby ground » Sun May 29, 2011 9:47 am


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BlackBird
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby BlackBird » Sun May 29, 2011 10:41 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

rowyourboat
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 29, 2011 3:30 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

PeterB
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby PeterB » Sun May 29, 2011 3:33 pm

Maybe one day rowyourboat you will begin to express openly your view of The Forest Sangha, Goenka etc. rather than allude, suggest, imply and generally go round the houses. That way an actual debate can be joined.

Reductor
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Reductor » Sun May 29, 2011 4:33 pm

Last edited by Reductor on Sun May 29, 2011 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kenshou
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Kenshou » Sun May 29, 2011 4:34 pm


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ground
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby ground » Sun May 29, 2011 4:52 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 29, 2011 11:18 pm

Yes of course I see that ending of craving ends mental suffering in the arahanth. I also see that the death of the arahanth as the ending of sankhara dukkha as well, so it is significant.

My question is why leave out such a significant part of the dhamma (what is anicca, is dukkha) out of a talk on suffering. IMHO he did this because he knew what his audience was like- they needed a certain ..'sunshine' shall we call it, in a talk of dukkha. They are laypeople after all, not ordained. However it leaves me dissatisfied because I feel that this puts a spin on dhamma-vinaya which I believe can be avoided if they stick to topics like compassion, morality and generosity. This I think is the problem of a monk being dependant on his lay followers and the message not being truly independent. Who can speak without fear of upsetting one's followers?

I have heard Bhikkhu Bodhi translate anatta as 'self-less' in what I assume to be a talk similar to this in some ways (it was done for a lay audience as well). Now while it is not technically incorrect, it can mislead the listener as they will naturally come to the wrong conclusion, when it is not then described in depth. While it is not an untruth in the speakers mind, it is nevertheless a misrepresentation of the dhamma- which I don't believe in, whatever the cost. Better have your listeners battle through their own cravings and reach the truth, rather than not know where the truth lies at all. One person I admire in this issue is the Dalai Lama who keeps it simple, beneficial and true, rather than mildly untrue, yet beneficial.

The Buddha said that after his dimise the dhamma-vinaya will be the arbitatror, not individuals. I do feel an urge to pop dhamma-lite wherever I see it- it is a weakness, I know. :shrug: I'm not against any tradition per-se, just what I think is potentially misleading. :thinking: Who appointed me? Yes, well... :embarassed:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
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& Upekkha

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bodom
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby bodom » Sun May 29, 2011 11:36 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Goofaholix
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon May 30, 2011 12:37 am


rowyourboat
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon May 30, 2011 5:22 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Goofaholix
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon May 30, 2011 6:02 am


PeterB
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby PeterB » Mon May 30, 2011 8:56 am

It is not necessary to agree with every single recorded and edited utterance of someone, and that is what we are talking about here..Ajahn Sumedho has not " written " any books or issued unedited talks...to see someone who has achieved more for the Dhamma in his lifetime than any of us ever will. So references to Dhamma-Lite are grotesquely inappropriate .

chownah
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby chownah » Mon May 30, 2011 2:22 pm


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Goofaholix
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon May 30, 2011 8:56 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: There IS suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:08 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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