Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri May 27, 2011 6:21 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Pārasamgate
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Pārasamgate » Fri May 27, 2011 6:57 pm


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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri May 27, 2011 9:51 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 6:22 am

Last edited by christopher::: on Sat May 28, 2011 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 28, 2011 6:24 am


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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 28, 2011 6:31 am


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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 6:57 am

The context of that Goldstein quote was provided by Pārasamgate yesterday. But the context for my comment/question was this conversation way back on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:49 am, its not something i'd been asking about recently ....

:smile:
Last edited by christopher::: on Sat May 28, 2011 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 28, 2011 7:00 am


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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 7:02 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby danieLion » Sat May 28, 2011 7:58 am


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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 8:21 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby PeterB » Sat May 28, 2011 8:40 am

Chris you rely heavily on the "non attachment to views" argument, From a Theravadin view point this is problematic. the Theravada is saying quite clearly that attachment to views is an essential element in the actualisation of Dhamma...attachment that is to certain views...to Right View in fact. ....Unlike some Zen schools or Dzogchen which sees a theoretical possibility of direct pointing to truth leading to individual liberation. The Theravada has no parallel position.
Instead it sees as essential a transitional or temporary position in which one actions are informed by Saddha...and that means the holding of views which may be provisional, but are essential.
Therefore when addressing Theravadin Buddhists there is a real possibility than in stressing " non attachment to views " in an uncontextualised and general way , that you are ( however unwittingly ) saying "non attachment to the Theravada. "
The Theravada may ultimately be a provisional view, but that is not where we live.
By its own definition the Theravada posits a provisional view which is essential part of the process leading to that which is not provisional.

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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 9:22 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby PeterB » Sat May 28, 2011 9:37 am

Au contraire. We need to be ultra attached to, and surrendered to, a supervised and informed path of practice, otherwise know as Right View and Right Effort... in order ultimately to transcend the provisional. The solution lies not in not holding views. The solution lies in practising whole heartedly within that supervised and informed position while not comparing it or ourselves to others.
Last edited by PeterB on Sat May 28, 2011 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Dan74 » Sat May 28, 2011 9:49 am

Seng T'san is not speaking conventionally when he speaks of picking and choosing. He certainly picked the words and chose to write down the view expressed in his gatha.

It is about a sublime state of equanimity, where the mind is completely unswayed by the happenings, by the "worldly winds".

In the meantime, I completely agree with Peter. Strong views make for strong actions, while weak views make for weak actions. In particular, it helps to have a strong view on the importance of maintaining a robust regular practice, if one wants to actually cut through the thicket of delusion.
_/|\_

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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Sat May 28, 2011 11:15 am

I don't think Goldstein would disagree with either of you. I haven't heard him suggest at any time that the solution does not lie in practicing whole heartedly an informed path of practice, with guidance. He seemed to be speaking of something congruent with that, imo -- what it is about methods and teachings of a path that accounts for liberation - that brings us eventually to "the mind of no-clinging". For most of us this may involve countless lifetimes of work, clinging clinging much of the way.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Dan74
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Dan74 » Sat May 28, 2011 12:37 pm

Probably! :)

Depends how much we still want to play the game I guess!
_/|\_

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Pārasamgate » Sat May 28, 2011 2:33 pm


PeterB
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby PeterB » Sat May 28, 2011 2:39 pm

I find for myself no use for any concept like " the mind of no- clinging " but if others find it useful who I am to say otherwise.

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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat May 28, 2011 7:13 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)



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