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Jhanas v. Vipassana - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Jhanas v. Vipassana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pegembara
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby pegembara » Fri May 27, 2011 3:41 pm

Here is how Sariputta gained liberation progressing through the jhanas.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

Anupada Sutta: One After Another
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Ytrog
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Ytrog » Fri May 27, 2011 4:45 pm

Very helpful :)

So, with more progress in mindfulness (aquired in more serene environments) it is possible to be mindful during any activity. I really need to go to retreats more often then :anjali:

urownexperience
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby urownexperience » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:25 am

It seems obvious (to me) that in the anapanasati sutta both jhana and insight are realized together. If jhana is not attained, dry insight is very difficult (my experience only). Without the sharp knife of jhana, cutting through is usually very shallow, although the one with the insight wouldn't necessarily agree! Some, perhaps many vipassana students training for decades, have admitted to little change in their lives regarding dispassion, cessation, and relinquishment. Few are living in the woods!

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:26 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

rowyourboat
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:48 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

urownexperience
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby urownexperience » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:17 pm

I believe that anyone who has actually experienced jhanas at any level, (not imagined experiencing them) and them experienced the tremendous insight and creativity that naturally follows with no effort or modes of practice at all, will be convinced that jhana is the key to transformation. In the Digha Nikaya, The Buddha told the monks: if a person develops these jhanas, makes much of them, is almost attached to them, attached to their development then there are four consequences of that attachment to that development: stream entry, once returner, non-returner and Arahat.

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:00 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:41 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:54 pm

On the other hand, to refute what I've said...

The wisdom there, AN4.92-94, could be suttamaya or cintāmaya paññā - considering that no mention of the path is until 4th case. These by themselves do not constitute awakening, bhāvanāmaya paññā is required. The sutta does in the bottom of it says that:

""As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In those suttas it is the 4th case (both insight & tranquility) that is mentioned to lead to maggaphala. It seems strange that Buddha taught N8P and allows for N7P.

Furthermore, I wonder if the whole split of "Tranquility vs Insight" is as sharp and divisive as the Buddha has thought. Maybe these are two factors of ONE Noble Eightfold path that culminates in Jhāna? After all, one can't have Jhāna without paññā. So it is not that case that Jhāna is done without paññā.

"There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2

Note: Mindfulness (sati) is present in Jhāna. So it is not the case of either/or. Concentration or insight.


The phrase that "samatha leads to abandonment of lust... Wisdom leads to abandonment of ignorance" doesn't necessarily have to signify two distinct and mutually exclusive paths with two different and mutually exclusive goals. One path, culminating in Jhānas contains multiple factors with distinct functions. One part of it destroys lust, another part destroys ignorance. These two parts are like two sides of the same ONE coin... Maybe the analytical split is only a conceptual one, done by well meaning scholars who tried to be as precise as possible and have introduced unnecessary distinctions. In reality things happen much more interdependently, homogeneously and rarely (if ever) can be split up like that. Only as an abstraction, in the head. IMHO.


With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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ground
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby ground » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:11 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:27 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:28 pm

Hello TMingyur,

the method leading to Jhāna does require certain amount of wisdom (paññā) and mindfulness (sati). Concentration without these is simply blanking out unconscious, which as we know, doesn't lead to insight. One needs to be able to be mindful and remember (sati) what the hindrances are, spot (attention) the hindrances when they occur and find a way to counteract them. The stronger the hindrances, the more effective solution one will have to find to deal with them. Then during or after Jhāna, one can observe presently arisen reality (nāmarūpa) really deeply, and not superficially with ordinary level of observation. One can also wisely use the Jhānic experience to examine dukkha.

IMHO.

With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:30 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:35 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:41 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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ground
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby ground » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:47 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:52 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:56 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:01 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhanas v. Vipassana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:02 pm



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