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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
I've always thought hindu gods were mythical creations of the hindu mind. Surprised a lot of Buddhists take them very seriously.


New to Buddhism then, are you?


Not at all. I knew there was always a belief in gods but didn't get too deeply into it. I'm new to Vajrayana which seems to go into depth with these gods, particularly the hindu ones.


Just keep an open mind as you go further. These "gods" can hinder or help your practice. A good master will help clear things up.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:14 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
I've always thought hindu gods were mythical creations of the hindu mind. Surprised a lot of Buddhists take them very seriously.


Is there a special kind of "hindu mind"?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:27 am 
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heart wrote:
Is there a special kind of "hindu mind"?

Oh, indeed there is!

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:35 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
I've always thought hindu gods were mythical creations of the hindu mind. Surprised a lot of Buddhists take them very seriously.


Perhaps a little foray into the origins of your own deity of choice, Amitabha, may help you. ;)

From a Hindu perspective, they may wonder why Buddhists take their deities but not their God.

Thse matters are not superficial. For example a superficial examination of a form of Buddhism would aparently reveal that there is reliance on a deity as if he is real, and 'other', and also be open to the supposition that these people have merely invented a fictitious deity to worship :

''The Pure Land school established on this basis may be called the way of salvation by a "power outside of ourselves," or "other power" (i.e., the power of Amida Buddha).''

http://www.jodo.org/about_plb/what_plb.html

You see how easily we may be misled without guidance from a valid source. In the case of the Vajrayana this is very much the case.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:39 am 
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Every Buddha of this fortunate Aeon will be born and teach in India. It is the spiritual heart of our world.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:42 am 
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Nemo wrote:
Every Buddha of this fortunate Aeon will be born and teach in India. It is the spiritual heart of our world.


Seems like there was an India in previous aeons as well. All 28 names of previous Buddhas have Indian names according to the Canon.
http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=28_Buddhas


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:47 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
I've always thought hindu gods were mythical creations of the hindu mind. Surprised a lot of Buddhists take them very seriously.


Perhaps a little foray into the origins of your own deity of choice, Amitabha, may help you. ;)

From a Hindu perspective, they may wonder why Buddhists take their deities but not their God.

Thse matters are not superficial. For example a superficial examination of a form of Buddhism would aparently reveal that there is reliance on a deity as if he is real, and 'other', and also be open to the supposition that these people have merely invented a fictitious deity to worship :

''The Pure Land school established on this basis may be called the way of salvation by a "power outside of ourselves," or "other power" (i.e., the power of Amida Buddha).''

http://www.jodo.org/about_plb/what_plb.html

You see how easily we may be misled without guidance from a valid source. In the case of the Vajrayana this is very much the case.


There is historical proof of Amida though in Padmasambhava.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:27 am 
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Equating Vajrayogini with Kali is just plain bovine schatology :toilet: & I dont even see why people are debating this. Kali is suppose to be the Mother Goddess, yet Vajrayogini tramples the Mother Goddess in the dirt, this IS NOT ment to be a polite portrail of the Mother Goddess in Buddhist Tantra, see the point ?!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:58 am 
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Puggi wrote:
Equating Vajrayogini with Kali is just plain bovine schatology :toilet: & I dont even see why people are debating this. Kali is suppose to be the Mother Goddess, yet Vajrayogini tramples the Mother Goddess in the dirt, this IS NOT ment to be a polite portrail of the Mother Goddess in Buddhist Tantra, see the point ?!


Take that, so-called Mother Goddess!! That's how we so-called bodhisattvas roll. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:02 am 
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A little thought on the Mount Meru Cosmology, as it does seem to give people a bit of a problem at times. This is how I resolved the issue, ever seen a map on the underground railway, the maps are pretty accurate & tell you where you are & how to got to where you want to go, but they are not an actual physical representation but a schematic and function quite well, same with Mount Meru ... hopes this helps some one a bit.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:26 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Namdrol wrote:


The 'Kali' mentioned in ancient Vedic scritpure is not Kali, the Black Goddess (as worshipped at Dakshineswar for example)


A prayer of Arjuna to goddess Kali, was clearly documented in the Mahabharta, predating the classical vedic and upanishads.

namaste siddha senaani aarye mandaravaasinee
kumaaree kaalee kapaalee kapile krishna pingale ||

I bow to Thee, O leader of Yogins, O Thou that art identical with the great consciousness within (Brahman), O Thou that dwellest in the forest of Mandara, O Thou that art freed from decrepitude and decay, O Kaalee, O wife of Kapaala, O Thou that art of a black and tawny hue, I bow to Thee.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:14 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Kālarātri aka Kālī along with Bhairāva serve as the seat of Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini. So it is really quite impossible that Kālī can be Vajrayogini. In reality, Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini emanated from Akaniṣṭha to counteract Bhairava and Kālī.


proof please, do you have the original Sanskrit/ tibetan scriptures - or is this simply your opinion? :reading: :roll:



When asked a Lama who resided in tibet, whist i was visiting Kailash, years ago. Who is Vajrayogini trampling on. 'Tell me more about this this bewitching dakini', i beseeched this Vajra master.
He replied, in very good english may i add: 'the doctrine of vajrayogini, is not for the uninitiated and followers of tainted, polluted western scholars - concentrate on good dharma, noble truths, and the triple gem - perfection of these simple measures will instil true knowledge, and arrest the lies of the false preachers growing greedy off the imprudents trapped in samsara’.

I was taken back, and somewhat confused. After talking to several Tibetans regarding the enigmatic practises of Vajrayogini, it was inferred her teaching by true lamas, who are impassive to the hoarding of westerners for personal profit, would expect total surrender of one’s identity; to relinquish material chattels, and live a selfless, monastic life of servitude for the good of others, as was prescribed by the Buddha to the Bodhisattvas over the aeons.

Back in Kathmandhu, I learnt that the two figures she was trampling on was Kalratri, and Bhairav.

Kalratri, was the seventh manifestation of the goddess Durga, rather than Goddess Kali per se.
Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend (ISBN 0-500-51088-1) by Anna Dhallapiccola

She is the fiercest form of Goddess Durga, she is synonymous with Bhairavi, and wields the thunderbolt (vajra)

Epithets for Vajrayogini: Krodikali (= angry kali) Krodhakali, Kālikā, Krodheśvarī (she who is agitated), Krishna Krodhini (krishna means black in sanskrit, krodhini = angry – hence angry dark one); Tibetan:Troma Nagmo:khros ma nag mo; English: 'the Wrathful Lady' or 'the Fierce Black One'

References: as a lot of people on here love wikipedia, i took the initiative to look-up the reference taken on wikipedia's Vajrayoginī page.
The Forms of Vajrayoginī Himalayan Art Resources http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/490.html
Vajrayoginī - Krodha Kali (Wrathful Black Varahi) http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=359



Finally, not sure if Varahi and Cinnamunda have been ,mentioned, again these great yoginis and emanations of shakti revered by both shaktas and some vajra practitioners alike, although their are some noticeable differences on the methods of practise involved.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:09 am 
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finally, meditation on vajrayogini:
holding skull bowl and chopper and carrying a khatvanga staff. She stands atop the
bodies of pink Kalaratri and black Bhairava. At the top center is the buddha
Vajradhara, at the left is the Indian mahasiddha Tilopa holding a fish in his
upraised left hand, and at the right is a seated Tibetan yogi wearing a white cot-
ton upper robe and a yellow meditation belt. At the bottom left is the wrathful deity
Humkara, and on the right is g. Yu sgron ma, a female deity of Tibetan origin hold-
ing what appears to be a large drum in her right hand and a stick in her left.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Quote:
I was taken back, and somewhat confused.
Your reaction is not surprising and neither was the lamas response. Vajrayogini is a "secret" yidam practice that requires that you complete ngondro first. Have you completed ngondro? Have you been given Vajrayogini as a yidam?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:43 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Quote:
I was taken back, and somewhat confused.
Your reaction is not surprising and neither was the lamas response. Vajrayogini is a "secret" yidam practice that requires that you complete ngondro first. Have you completed ngondro? Have you been given Vajrayogini as a yidam?
:namaste:


It is really best not to generalize here. When you do you inevitably gloss over the immense diversity found in the various Tibetan schools and end up portraying one teacher or tradition's view as normative.

It is not required that one completes a ngöndro before engaging in Vajrayogini practice. Naropa's Khechari is one of the principle practices of the Sakya school and can be practiced by anyone with either the Cakrasamvara or Hevajra empowerment and then the Yogini blessing. Ngöndro is not required for any of these empowerments as the practices most commonly associated with ngöndro are performed in the immediate context of the sadhana, and not prior to the receiving of the empowerment.

Likewise, there are many Nyingma lamas who will bestow various empowerments from terma for Varahi and related yidams without the completion of ngöndro, not to mention the fact that Yogini is a principle part of many of the modern nyingma ngöndros.

All the best.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Thank you for pointing out those details!

What I should have said then, was: In the Karma Kagyu tradition Vajrayogini is a "secret" yidam practice that requires that you complete ngondro first. blah, blah, blah...
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:37 pm 
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'Even if one is not able to practice all the details of the eleven yogas of Vajrayogini, one who knows how to really pray deeply to the goddess Tara will receive the same benefits.' [Chogye Trichen]


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:03 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Thank you for pointing out those details!

What I should have said then, was: In the Karma Kagyu tradition Vajrayogini is a "secret" yidam practice that requires that you complete ngondro first. blah, blah, blah...
:namaste:


You know that the last pages of the karma kagyu ngondro is a short vajrayogini practice? It is normally removed, but it is a part of the ngondro.

/magnus

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