Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

[deepbluehum]

Anyway this is very slippery terminology. Seriously. There is no factual basis for believing one came before the other. No point really.

I think the author's point that Buddhist tantra has a clear path of development, whereas the Hindu ones do not seem to exhibit such developmental characteristics, is interesting. At least from a textual analysis POV, there is merit to think so.

You don't agree obviously, but that is ok. Perhaps more research will come to light that will change either of our views.

My opinion is that this reflects the Hindu vs. Buddhist culture in India. Buddhism has always been very much about the letter and precision especially when it comes to lineages of deities and buddhas. Hindu yogis have a much more nebulous view of reality, especially history. They don't have a history keeping function. Screwing up timelines is fine especially if you are making a cool point. That's something to consider.

[deepbluehum]

"The Yoga of the Continuously Flowing River," a very specific dharma term, that you should learn more about.

Yes, well, if you are going to post stuff on a public board that only those that know about it, will be benefited by it, it doesn't really do much good does it? How about posting a link to an explanation of the practice rather than being a cryptic mystical snob?

Compassion for the ignorant is something you should learn more about.

Hay Soos! You are wound up tight. Relax. Okay, now, I'm just nudging you a little. Check out "Samadhi of the Continuous Flowing River." It's a very special and sweet deal. Explore and see what you can find of this. Patrul Rinpoche, Milarepa, Gampopa, and many many TB teachers speak of it. Very wonderful. Please try to know more about it.

[deepbluehum]

"The Yoga of the Continuously Flowing River," a very specific dharma term, that you should learn more about.

Yes, well, if you are going to post stuff on a public board that only those that know about it, will be benefited by it, it doesn't really do much good does it? How about posting a link to an explanation of the practice rather than being a cryptic mystical snob?

Compassion for the ignorant is something you should learn more about.

BTW Greg, You are a very nice teacher. I'm really glad to see you again here.

[Rakshasa]

Deepbluehum,

Are you from India/Hindu?

Vedas are not tantra but they are set of prayers in Indo-Aryan language. Zenda Avesta, which is a sister religion of the Irano-Aryans, also contains similar hymns which are prayers to their gods. Even if Tantra originated before Buddhism, it certainly did not originate from "Hinduism" - such a uniform religion did not exist back then. In fact, even the term came into existence in the medieval times as a reaction to the invading Muslims. The later Hindu texts like Puranas, Smritis etc categorize the Tantrics in the same derogatory class that it puts Buddhists and Jains into.

There were people living in India even before the Indo-Aryans became dominant and it is from that root that Tantras originated from. Read the article that I posted, it is not full of claims, but analysis and evidence. Or otherwise you could directly refer to Dr. Benyotosh Bhattacharya's work related to Tantrism in India.

Right from the British Colonial times, Indian history has been portrayed right from the arrival of Indo-Aryans, it is falsely propagated that they were the ones to bring "civilization" to India. I dont subscribe to such views and even some eminent historians have also claimed that most of modern Hinduism actually came from the native Dravidian culture.

[Red Faced Buddha]

Deepbluehum,

Are you from India/Hindu?

Vedas are not tantra but they are set of prayers in Indo-Aryan language. Zenda Avesta, which is a sister religion of the Irano-Aryans, also contains similar hymns which are prayers to their gods. Even if Tantra originated before Buddhism, it certainly did not originate from "Hinduism" - such a uniform religion did not exist back then. In fact, even the term came into existence in the medieval times as a reaction to the invading Muslims. The later Hindu texts like Puranas, Smritis etc categorize the Tantrics in the same derogatory class that it puts Buddhists and Jains into.

There were people living in India even before the Indo-Aryans became dominant and it is from that root that Tantras originated from. Read the article that I posted, it is not full of claims, but analysis and evidence. Or otherwise you could directly refer to Dr. Benyotosh Bhattacharya's work related to Tantrism in India.

Right from the British Colonial times, Indian history has been portrayed right from the arrival of Indo-Aryans, it is falsely propagated that they were the ones to bring "civilization" to India. I dont subscribe to such views and even some eminent historians have also claimed that most of modern Hinduism actually came from the native Dravidian culture.

Yeah,the Vedas are mainly prayers,or at least the Rig Veda is(that's the only one I've read.)don't know about the other ones though.

[heart]

Hinduism.However Shaivism isn't Hinduism,it is a school of Hinduism that worships Shiva as the supreme being.

It is. Hinduism is not one religion, it is a huge conglomerate of religions that are loosely connected and that share a common cultural background.

/magnus

[deepbluehum]

Well not only prayers, but also mantras, i.e., Gayatri. I did not say tantra was Hindu. But there are tantras that predate Buddha, and those tantras relate to Shiva.

[consciousness]

The deities involved are not bound by timelines invented by humans, and nobody knows which ones were first to be discovered by humans or first to be given names in oral or written tradition.

Although Kali as a name has a very long history, the black goddess figure we know now is quite possibly less old than Vajrayogini's first mention.

Tara, Ganesha, Garuda etc. appear in both and the same 'chicken and egg' quest applies.

The way in which deities are regarded is also entirely different so comparing one with the other is pretty pointless.

I would take all claims of primacy and superiority with a pinch of salt - it is really of no relevance as they bear no relation to the timeless nature of those deities.

What is the first historical mention of Vajrayogini? Was her practice as ascribed by actual historical credentials not from circa 8th century? After Padmasambhava introduced Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet.


I never believe tantra was invented by hinduism, however, tantra first practised by shaivites and shaktas precede the vedic assimilation of them in modern hinduism.

One of the earliest mentioning of the Goddess Kali was from the Mahabharat, around 1400BC, recalls the prayer of the prince Arjun to Kali:
namaste siddha senaani aarye mandaravaasinee
kumaaree kaalee kapaalee kapile krishna pingale ||

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCm2f_jP-1MC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=I+bow+to+Thee,+O+leader+of+Yogins,+O+Thou+that+art+identical+with+Braahman,&source=bl&ots=U9ZQwW2HEG&sig=fWA13jHOhRj8UC_6sp41HVx4OgU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cy56UIetCueh0QXDj4HwBw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20bow%20to%20Thee%2C%20O%20leader%20of%20Yogins%2C%20O%20Thou%20that%20art%20identical%20with%20Braahman%2C&f=false

with later Elucidation of Kali, Chamunda in further details in the Devī Māhātmya
^ Coburn, Thomas B., Devī Māhātmya. p 95

[Red Faced Buddha]

The deities involved are not bound by timelines invented by humans, and nobody knows which ones were first to be discovered by humans or first to be given names in oral or written tradition.

Although Kali as a name has a very long history, the black goddess figure we know now is quite possibly less old than Vajrayogini's first mention.

Tara, Ganesha, Garuda etc. appear in both and the same 'chicken and egg' quest applies.

The way in which deities are regarded is also entirely different so comparing one with the other is pretty pointless.

I would take all claims of primacy and superiority with a pinch of salt - it is really of no relevance as they bear no relation to the timeless nature of those deities.

What is the first historical mention of Vajrayogini? Was her practice as ascribed by actual historical credentials not from circa 8th century? After Padmasambhava introduced Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet.


I never believe tantra was invented by hinduism, however, tantra first practised by shaivites and shaktas precede the vedic assimilation of them in modern hinduism.

One of the earliest mentioning of the Goddess Kali was from the Mahabharat, around 1400BC, recalls the prayer of the prince Arjun to Kali:
namaste siddha senaani aarye mandaravaasinee
kumaaree kaalee kapaalee kapile krishna pingale ||

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCm2f_jP-1MC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=I+bow+to+Thee,+O+leader+of+Yogins,+O+Thou+that+art+identical+with+Braahman,&source=bl&ots=U9ZQwW2HEG&sig=fWA13jHOhRj8UC_6sp41HVx4OgU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cy56UIetCueh0QXDj4HwBw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20bow%20to%20Thee%2C%20O%20leader%20of%20Yogins%2C%20O%20Thou%20that%20art%20identical%20with%20Braahman%2C&f=false

with later Elucidation of Kali, Chamunda in further details in the Devī Māhātmya
^ Coburn, Thomas B., Devī Māhātmya. p 95

Wasn't the Mahabharata written about the same time the Buddha was around?(Either a few hundred years before or after.)I don't think it was written as far back as 1400 BC.

[deepbluehum]

Mahabharat is 4th Cen BCE

[Red Faced Buddha]

Mahabharat is 4th Cen BCE

Thought so.It was either 500 or 400 B.C(cookie for both of us .)