Would you say that mdma experience of all out love is valid?

[Ervin]

I was listening one day a talk by Will Pyle at a Eckhart Tolle meditation meetup in Melbourne and he was mentioning that his first interest in spirituality came from an experience of all out unconditional love while on ecstasy.

By the way I think he is giving talk at the next Eckhart Tolle meditation meet up in Melbourne wich is I thinkbon next Sunday. It's free to join the group by the way, you just google ET meetup.

Anyway, I agree with him that the experience is valid. I used to take speed and I was evil at times as a result and I ended up in prison for something I have done while affected by amphetamines. So if speed and coke make you feel evil and I am telling you that experience is real and valid then the unconditional love for everyone that you feel from mdma is valid. I wouldn't recommend using any drugs. Drugs are illegal, can be addictive and you never know what you are geting with ecstasy. I have had ecstasy tablets and I think only one was actual mdma. Some other felt like coke, if not stronger. And simply agreeing with me wholeheartedly is enough to know. Wich means there is no need to try it.

Thanks

[Raksha]

An elderly Tibetan lama once commented to me about people who smoke marijuana... 'everything they think and everything they say is crap'. With stronger drugs it is even worse, and in addition they cause a lot of harm to your health, MDMA for example permanently damages the heart. As to the validity of the experience...is a child's drawing of the sun the same as the real sun? They are just false shadows of real mental states that can be achieved through meditation. Of course the real thing is hard work. It is a bit like playing a kungfu master on a computer game, as opposed to the decades of pain and sweat required for mastery in the real world. Furthermore they are mutually exclusive, so if you take drugs you will find meditation impossibly difficult, and the foundation of your Buddhist path, which is morality, will be very weak. So if you are serious about Buddhism you will have to walk in the footsteps of countless ex-hippies before you and quit taking drugs.
R.

[kirtu]

I was listening one day a talk by Will Pyle at a Eckhart Tolle meditation meetup in Melbourne and he was mentioning that his first interest in spirituality came from an experience of all out unconditional love while on ecstasy.

Drugs are nothing but delusion (well, not necessarily, nothing - HHPR said that they were also the physical embodiment of demons).

I have heard people make these claims of ecstasy (unconditional, all pervasive love) and lsd (nonduaility). These are just deluded experiences. Compared to their ordinary experience, these projections seem to be true in most cases. But people who don't like someone are not likely to like them after the experience (the one possible exception is not liking someone, taking a drug and having sex with them - this used to be a favorite trick of Georgetown University students trying to overcome their negativities - of course they have faith in sex and drugs). Also the experiences don't usually change the person, except that they can spark some other interests in some people (so this person was already primed to have an interest in spirituality sparked).

Kirt

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Everything is a delusion. There is no inherent objective truth regarding anything. Some experiences may be more skilful for some than others.

[catmoon]

Hm. If you are the kind of person who thinks in terms of "valid cognizers" then a mind on drugs does not qualify as one. At least I don't think so.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Hm. If you are the kind of person who thinks in terms of "valid cognizers" then a mind on drugs does not qualify as one. At least I don't think so.

Ultimately the only way to recognize whether we have developed a valid cognizer is to measure whether our self-grasping has been reduced.

[deepbluehum]

Just a chemical reaction.

[Jinzang]

The question is how do you act after the drug wears off? If there is a permanent change, then it was real. If not, it was just a drug induced feeling.

[dakini_boi]

Drugs are nothing but delusion (well, not necessarily, nothing - HHPR said that they were also the physical embodiment of demons).

What about prescription psychiatric drugs (SSRI's, etc)?

[catmoon]

Drugs are nothing but delusion (well, not necessarily, nothing - HHPR said that they were also the physical embodiment of demons).

What about prescription psychiatric drugs (SSRI's, etc)?

They don't seem to cause much trouble, unless you are getting too much of them. Then you get a bit foggy headed, like a light marijuana buzz.

[lobster]

An elderly Tibetan lama once commented to me about people who smoke marijuana... 'everything they think and everything they say is crap'. With stronger drugs it is even worse, and in addition they cause a lot of harm to your health, MDMA for example permanently damages the heart. As to the validity of the experience...is a child's drawing of the sun the same as the real sun? They are just false shadows of real mental states that can be achieved through meditation. Of course the real thing is hard work. It is a bit like playing a kungfu master on a computer game, as opposed to the decades of pain and sweat required for mastery in the real world. Furthermore they are mutually exclusive, so if you take drugs you will find meditation impossibly difficult, and the foundation of your Buddhist path, which is morality, will be very weak. So if you are serious about Buddhism you will have to walk in the footsteps of countless ex-hippies before you and quit taking drugs.
R.

I met a monk who was inspired to take robes by his shamanic use of drugs in South America.
I once noticed a hippy rolling a joint during a morning puja practice. Every time I looked his way, he made half hearted efforts to look like a meditator . . .

Drug taking is a part of some spirituality. However then so is animal sacrifice.

This is a good place to end such efforts . . .

[underthetree]

If you take a drug experience as a touchstone for spiritual practice, you will always be trying to recreate something artificial. At the very best, it will be like taking the most perfect food and slathering it with MSG. Or staying indoors and watching a sunset on Youtube while the world is glowing outside.

[gyougan]

An elderly Tibetan lama once commented to me about people who smoke marijuana... 'everything they think and everything they say is crap'.

Sorry but this lama sounds like an idiot.

It's really irritating to see people who have never taken any drugs act as if they know what drugs are about.

[Raksha]

this lama sounds like an idiot

'It is not the faults of others, but ones own faults, like reflections rising in the surface of a mirror.' [Patrul]

[Thrasymachus]

Most people who use drugs in our society do it as a means of escapism. Our surrogate human created but wholly un-natural rules and technological society are so monstrous in full viewing, that we need to shield our eyes with drugs and by spending hours per day partaking in fantastic depictions of this dystopia by watching cinema or television. Pre-modern tribal societies used to take drugs like ayahuasca to be more aware in special rituals, but in our society people do it to be less aware.

Everyone I know who has been heavily into drugs for years has a salad-like, scattered brain. Another thing they tend to do is work on externalizing and escaping the inner self and that is where drugs come in for them. You are on the false path with this new age drugs and Eckhart Tolle nonsense.

[CrawfordHollow]

Unconditional love? I don't think so. Sure, ecstasty will make you go up to strangers and give them hugs and tell them your life story. Its a very emotional high and can be create a strong bonding experience with people. I used to love doing it with friends and lovers. But things aren't so nice when you start to come down. Its a big rollercoaster ride- that's why they call it rolling. When you crash you feel like the most miserable piece of dirt, you just want to get the feeling back, desperately. Where's the unconditional love then? The experiences that these chemicals give you are completely useless on the spiritual path, and people are certaintly not better off because of them. Ever hear the expression E-tard?

Story time: I remember rolling one night in college. I was on a bed with a number of people, guys and gals. We were giving each other messages, hugs, putting ice cubes down each other's shirts... Advanced spiritual practices here. All of a sudden I felt the need to exclaim how much I loved my parents. Somebody repiled that I needed to tell them that. I said, "you know, your right!" So I whipped out my cell phone and called them at 2 in the morning and told them just that. It went something like this: Phone rings, wakes Mom up: "Troy, are you all right?!" Me: "I love you Mom, I'm on ecstacy and I just love you!" Needless to say the next family holiday was a little awkward. The point is is that drugs like this can make you feel like your having a profound spritual experience, when in all reality you are just acting like a moron! I'm a bit older and wiser now and try to just stick to the practices and teachings of my Buddhist lineage. Drugs will lead you nowhere, in fact just yesterday a young girl in my town was found dead by her mother. Drug overdose. Take refuge in the Buddha, not chemicals.

Troy

[lobster]

Take refuge in the Buddha, not chemicals.

Like many here I have taken my excessive share of narcotics. It is a dead end.
Insights gained from drugs are more like 'out-of-sights' . . . man . . . dude . . .

Wake up and . . . then wake up . . .

[Raksha]

Story time: I remember rolling one night in college

LOL