Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Martyn » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:35 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Martyn wrote:Most people are shit, including most so-called Buddhists, so it's no big loss.
The sooner this cancer is gone the better.

This is a very deluded thing to say as you are reducing people to their flaws.
Defects are not intrinsic, but adventitious. People are like that due to ignorance, an innate ignorance they don't even know they need or can dispel.

It's a moral imperative for those who know this attaining wisdom to a point in which they can help others to free themselves from the ignorance that ultimately causes so much suffering. Everyone wants to be happy, everyone wants to go home and that home is our true nature, free from any malice, any stain, any defilement. As we lost our way home and don't even know where it is, we take temporary substitutes for it and while at it hurt others, ourselves and create samsara.

The sooner this cancer is gone the better, as you say, but in this case the cancer is ignorance, not people.

Best wishes.


No, I stand by what I said.

You talk about ignorance, and don't even say what people are ignorant of.

You are "towing the party line" and quoting what you have read, not what you know to be true.

No, I speak from my own experience, and from looking at the world - most people are ---- (funny how others can use that word but I get censored.)

Best wishes.

EDIT I believe the Buddha said, if I recall correctly, that the problem with society is that people are "miserly and only care about themselves." Which is the same thing I'm saying when I say people are ----.
Last edited by Martyn on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Martyn » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:42 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Martyn wrote:Most people are shit, including most so-called Buddhists, so it's no big loss.
The sooner this cancer is gone the better.

This is a very deluded thing to say as you are reducing people to their flaws.
Defects are not intrinsic, but adventitious. People are like that due to ignorance, an innate ignorance they don't even know they need or can dispel.

It's a moral imperative for those who know this attaining wisdom to a point in which they can help others to free themselves from the ignorance that ultimately causes so much suffering. Everyone wants to be happy, everyone wants to go home and that home is our true nature, free from any malice, any stain, any defilement. As we lost our way home and don't even know where it is, we take temporary substitutes for it and while at it hurt others, ourselves and create samsara.

The sooner this cancer is gone the better, as you say, but in this case the cancer is ignorance, not people.

Best wishes.


You start off by insulting me by saying my argument is wrong and "very deluded."

Then you end with "best wishes."

WTF?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:02 pm

"So the whole thing about we don't need centers and all of that is stupid"

Has someone in this thread said that?

And yes, I agree, the problem is "I and my".

Can I ask you a question? If someone, anyone, someone from another tribe for instance, wanted that house that you remodeled, what would your response be?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:37 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Where is the judgement? Who is judging? Please show the judging comments, Greg. I don't understand your statements.
I have no idea what you are talking about? You mean this:
Best not judge others for tenaciously grasping to the raft while we ourselves are still in need of the raft.
First of all the statement is not directed at you specifically, I was just commenting generally. But it seems to me that when (the collective) you condemn religion as mere tribalism, that is a judgement. What you are effectively saying is that "I" the great evolved being, have developed beyond the base primitive and tribal need of religion, whereas "you" practice an inferior unevolved, or partially evolved model of spiritualism.

What I see in most instances of people professing this idea is rampant egotistical spiritual snobbery: "I" have got it figured out, "you" are deluded.

Unfortunately I have yet to see examples of highly evolved spiritual behaviour by those that make these, to me, ridiculous statements.

(pseudo) Marxists also made very similar claims and banned the practice of religion under their regimes, Basically they just set up a new secular religion in their place and as soon as this collapsed many people reverted back to their initial practices. I am afraid to say that basically it is not a matter of evolving past the tribalism associated with religion/politics/social groups etc... but overcoming our (perceived) need to identify via them.

Some religious, political and social forms actually assists us in overcoming our (perceived) need to identify.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:37 pm

MalaBeads wrote:"So the whole thing about we don't need centers and all of that is stupid"

Has someone in this thread said that?

And yes, I agree, the problem is "I and my".

Can I ask you a question? If someone, anyone, someone from another tribe for instance, wanted that house that you remodeled, what would your response be?


It's not for sale.
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:28 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:"So the whole thing about we don't need centers and all of that is stupid"

Has someone in this thread said that?

And yes, I agree, the problem is "I and my".

Can I ask you a question? If someone, anyone, someone from another tribe for instance, wanted that house that you remodeled, what would your response be?


It's not for sale.


I wasn't thinking along those lines! LOL!

My question was more along the lines of how attached are you to it being "yours", or belonging to your center, or to your lama, or your lineage?

Btw, I read your post in another thread describing your dharmic life and I would just like to say that if you haven't had an emotional meltdown at least once (or twice!) and in public, possibly you aren't putting your heart and soul into the practice. Just my opinion.
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:16 am

MalaBeads wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:"So the whole thing about we don't need centers and all of that is stupid"

Has someone in this thread said that?

And yes, I agree, the problem is "I and my".

Can I ask you a question? If someone, anyone, someone from another tribe for instance, wanted that house that you remodeled, what would your response be?


It's not for sale.


I wasn't thinking along those lines! LOL!

My question was more along the lines of how attached are you to it being "yours", or belonging to your center, or to your lama, or your lineage?

Btw, I read your post in another thread describing your dharmic life and I would just like to say that if you haven't had an emotional meltdown at least once (or twice!) and in public, possibly you aren't putting your heart and soul into the practice. Just my opinion.


that's very kind of you to say. No, the center belongs to the public. It's a non-profit organization. It's open to the public. But it will forever be a Drikung Kagyu center, whosoever is the lama.
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:55 am

DBH,

Once again we are speaking completely passed each other. The fact that you do not understand my question at all pretty much gives me my answer. And in a strange way, it's a good thing.

Although I will say this. Here is an example of two people who speak the same language and who do not understand each other one bit. It's strange but it's okay. I'm sure the lack of skillfulness is mine.

All the best to you.
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby shel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:22 am

MalaBeads wrote:Shakymuni had an insight into the nature of reality, he did not found a religion. Others, later, established a religion. At least from my perspective, it is so important to understand this.


Hello MalaBeads,

Are you suggesting that the Buddha did discover the Four Nobel Truths? If so, what did he discover?

But perhaps more to the point, how does one practice the Dharma?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:09 am

shel wrote:Hello MalaBeads,

Are you suggesting that the Buddha did discover the Four Nobel Truths? If so, what did he discover?

But perhaps more to the point, how does one practice the Dharma?
By indulging in self-centred experience based actions without regard to their outcome? By killing 1000 people and threading their fingers onto your mala? Through severe ascetic practice? By worshiping an external god(s)? ad nauseum...
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby shel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:Hello MalaBeads,

Are you suggesting that the Buddha did not discover the Four Nobel Truths? If so, what did he discover?

But perhaps more to the point, how does one practice the Dharma?
By indulging in self-centred experience based actions without regard to their outcome? By killing 1000 people and threading their fingers onto your mala? Through severe ascetic practice? By worshiping an external god(s)? ad nauseum...
:namaste:


What I should have said is that the Four Nobel Truths contain a path and practice, which is more than insight, and enough for a religion.

And if there is no path or practice in "Dharma" then isn't it just a meaningless word?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:22 pm

Okay, that's much clearer, thank you!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby MalaBeads » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:07 pm

If you want to learn and practice the buddhadharma, then the 4 Noble Truths are defintiely the way to go. The best presentation of this that I have found is Rahula Walpola's "What The Buddha Taught." His presentation of Shakymuni Buddha's teachings is the best I have found in any book. It is something that is good for beginners and old timers alike.

In Chapter 1, in the very first line, Walpola says "Among the founders of religions the Buddha (if we are permitted to call him the founder of a religion in the popular sense of the word) was the only teacher who did not claim to be other than a human being, plain and simple."

And in the third paragraph of Chapter 1, Walpola quotes the Mahaparinibbana-sutta by writing, "one is one's own refuge, who else could be the refuge?' and he reminds his readers that Shakymuni Buddha told his disciples to 'be a refuge to themselves'.

Sometimes, we hear the saying of Buddha, "Be a lamp unto yourself".

It is just a slight shift in perspective and it is rather radical, wouldn't you say?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby shel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:42 pm

I guess Walpola never heard of Muhammad??? but how is that possible :oops:
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:27 pm

Martyn wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Martyn wrote:Most people are shit, including most so-called Buddhists, so it's no big loss.
The sooner this cancer is gone the better.

This is a very deluded thing to say as you are reducing people to their flaws.
Defects are not intrinsic, but adventitious. People are like that due to ignorance, an innate ignorance they don't even know they need or can dispel.

It's a moral imperative for those who know this attaining wisdom to a point in which they can help others to free themselves from the ignorance that ultimately causes so much suffering. Everyone wants to be happy, everyone wants to go home and that home is our true nature, free from any malice, any stain, any defilement. As we lost our way home and don't even know where it is, we take temporary substitutes for it and while at it hurt others, ourselves and create samsara.

The sooner this cancer is gone the better, as you say, but in this case the cancer is ignorance, not people.

Best wishes.

No, I stand by what I said.

You talk about ignorance, and don't even say what people are ignorant of.

You are "towing the party line" and quoting what you have read, not what you know to be true.

No, I speak from my own experience, and from looking at the world - most people are ---- (funny how others can use that word but I get censored.)

Best wishes.

EDIT I believe the Buddha said, if I recall correctly, that the problem with society is that people are "miserly and only care about themselves." Which is the same thing I'm saying when I say people are ----.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You start off by insulting me by saying my argument is wrong and "very deluded."

Then you end with "best wishes."

WTF?

Sometimes we assume people have some basics understood and that is a mistake I made.

Let me try to explain this in a nutshell addressing your points one by one.

I'm in good will and this will be the last post I'm making on this board, so bear with me for a while.

The kind of ignorance I'm talking about is called avidya and it is an innate type of ignorance that is, in the end, the cause of samsara. It is also translated as delusion and it is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of reality. Due to it, you have the belief that there is a solid self, separated from a world outside that is independent.
Jeffrey Hopkins states:
[It is] ignorance that drives the entire process... [Ignorance] isn't just an inability to apprehend the truth but an active misapprehension of the status of oneself and all other objects—one's own mind or body, other people, and so forth. It is the conception or assumption that phenomena exist in a far more concrete way than they actually do.
Based on this misapprehension of the status of persons and things, we are drawn into afflictive desire and hatred [i.e. attachment and aversion]... Not knowing the real nature of phenomena, we are driven to generate desire for what we like and hatred for what we do not like and for what blocks our desires. These three—ignorance, desire, and hatred—are called the three poisons; they pervert our mental outlook.

Ringu Tulku states:
In the Buddhist sense, ignorance is equivalent to the identification of a self as being separate from everything else. It consists of the belief that there is an "I" that is not part of anything else. On this basis we think, "I am one and unique. Everything else is not me. It is something different."...
From this identification stems the dualistic view, since once there is an "I," there are also "others." Up to here is "me." The rest is "they." As soon as this split is made, it creates two opposite ways of reaction: "This is nice, I want it!" and "This is not nice, I do not want it!" ...
On the one hand there are those things that seem to threaten or undermine us. Maybe they will harm us or take away our identity. They are a danger to our security. Due to this way of thinking, aversion comes up... Then on the other hand there are those things that are so nice. We think, "I want them. I want them so much..." Through this way of thinking...attachment arises.


You say: You are "towing the party line" and quoting what you have read, not what you know to be true.
Let me put it this way. If you think well enough about the quote above, reasoning will be enough to make you second guess your initial assumption. With practice, you deepen your insight about what are we (not an immutable self with those internal flaws) and what is the cause of our suffering. It becomes more than written words and integrates your experience as living knowledge. There's a sudden understanding of the phenomena and you keep it with you through meditative stabilization.

Instead of considering people's flaws intrinsic, like something that they can't get rid of, you see them as adventitious, not belonging to their real nature. That goes a long way in helping you understand that if the flaws are not intrinsic to people, and if the flaws are what is bothering you, then the "cancer" are not people (whose flaws are ultimately due to ignorance), but those flaws you abhor. Good. So people are suffering and hurting others because of those flaws and there is a way for them to overcome that situation. That's where Dharma comes into the picture as it brings the way through which you deal adequately with the problem. I'm sure other members will offer help explaining whatever you need if there's something in my post that you are not still getting.

When I said it was a very deluded thing to say, I meant it in the sense that by considering the people equal to their flaws, you show that you are very much under the influence of that delusion which makes us misapprehend reality. So, although I can do a stupid thing, we all do, that doesn't mean I'm a stupid person. I classified the statement you made, not yourself, who probably are not more deluded than I am now.

Indeed I wish you well. The fact that you state something that I considered "very deluded", doesn't stop me from wishing you well. For instance, I love my wife very much. That doesn't mean we never say very deluded things to each other. Yet, there's love among us? See? Easy to understand, right?

So, best wishes! :smile:
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby MalaBeads » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:57 pm

shel wrote:I guess Walpola never heard of Muhammad??? but how is that possible :oops:


I don't understand your post, shel. Rahula Wapola wrote about Buddhism.

Could you say more?
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Re: Evolving Beyond Tribalism

Postby shel » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:17 am

Nevermind. :smile:
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