Bön as the fifth tradition

[kalden yungdrung]

Dear Administrators,

Saw that You did enumerate Bön as the fifth Tibetan tradition.

My question to You is then, How do You count?
Who was then the first tradition and who the last?

Thought that the Gelug was the last Tibetan Tradition when i am right.
Or are they the first?

Best wishes and thanks in advance for your effort and atttention.

Kalden Yungdrung

[plwk]

As I see it, in my limited view, it's not about who's first or last in line but perhaps what it's meant is that there are 4 Buddhist Schools and Bon, which makes up the 5 Traditions of Tibet? I recall reading this link: Bon as the Fifth Tradition of Tibet

[Heruka]

buddhas dont teach traditions and sects, schools etc.

that is ordinary human vision to do so.

i am a buddhist, but have learnt a great many things from bonpos.

understanding each other is the point i think.

it reminds me of someone trying to learn farming but is divorced/seperated from the earth.

[Sherab]

Communication via language is always from a reference point, explicitly or implicitly.

In this case "Bon as the fifth tradition" is from the reference point of Tibetan Buddhism.

For those who do not accept Bon as Buddhist, there are only four Buddhist traditions. For those who accept Bon as Buddhist, it is then given the label "5th tradition" since there are already the traditionally accepted 4 Buddhist tradtions.

[kalden yungdrung]

As I see it, in my limited view, it's not about who's first or last in line but perhaps what it's meant is that there are 4 Buddhist Schools and Bon, which makes up the 5 Traditions of Tibet? I recall reading this link: Bon as the Fifth Tradition of Tibet

Hello dear plwk,

Thanks for your reply.

You know i was at school very good in history it was my hobby history.
See anyway the Tibetan history as a great political puzzle nd in the west difficult to understand.
I guess it is also for Tibetan not easy to look through the curtains.
But after following 26 years Tibetan Traditions i got insight into this political history and can assure You that Tibet has also so its black pages which are covered with nice looking curtains and the outsider can not look through it, easy.

Back to the topic.
So I guess Bön as the fifth tradition historical seen is for me very strange because i count with years.

In my opinion counts the right following or enumeration - time line.
Bön-Nyingma (oldest Sarma Tradition)-Sakya-Kagyu-Gelug.
We also never can say about Nyingma they would be the fourth Tibetan Tradition or can we?
They are the oldest in the Sarma Tradition and much more older is Bön.

I cannot see this historical in another enumeration, sorry. Otherwise we have to rewrite the time line.......

We also cannot say that the Calvinistical, Reformed church in Europe comes or is founded before the Catholic church etc. historical seen. That woukld be a mistake/lie

First is first and last is last.

Best wishes for our individual practice

Kalden Yungdrung

[kalden yungdrung]

Communication via language is always from a reference point, explicitly or implicitly.

In this case "Bon as the fifth tradition" is from the reference point of Tibetan Buddhism.

For those who do not accept Bon as Buddhist, there are only four Buddhist traditions. For those who accept Bon as Buddhist, it is then given the label "5th tradition" since there are already the traditionally accepted 4 Buddhist tradtions.

Hello dear Sherab,

Thanks for your reply.

Bön is Buddhist because this lineage is founded by a Buddha.
But there are more Buddhas of course and Tibet is in my eyes a Buddha Land where once a Buddha lived.
But in India there lived also a Buddha named The Buddha Shakyamuni who is also venerated in Bön as such.
So India is also of course a Buddhaland or a country where once a Buddha did live,historical seen.
We very sure do not have problems or discriminate between Buddhas.
Buddhas do not discriminate between/among Buddhas.
Who do this, are the not Buddhas.

Another view would be:
For those who see Bön as Buddhism it is Tibetan Buddhism / Tibetan tradition/
For those who see the Sarma traditions as Buddhism it could be the Sarma Tradition/ Indian Buddhism/Dorje Thekpa -Vajrayana.

So anyway both the Dorje Thekpa and Bön are Buddhist and form a part of the precious Tibetan Traditions.

I see also the problem that we never or difficult can talk about Indian Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet.

Best wishes

In Bön
Kalden Yungdrung

[Sönam]

something smells rotten in the kingdom of Danemark ...


Sönam

[kalden yungdrung]

buddhas dont teach traditions and sects, schools etc.

that is ordinary human vision to do so.

i am a buddhist, but have learnt a great many things from bonpos.

understanding each other is the point i think.

it reminds me of someone trying to learn farming but is divorced/seperated from the earth.

Hello Heruka

Thanks for the reply.

Yes You are right and i can agree with this.
We can learn a lot of our Tibetan traditions anno data 2010 after the great Tibetan exodus.
I am also befriended with many Tibetans from all kind of schools and we always bow for our individual emancipation with respect and also we/i help sometimes with money.

So if i know a Gelug etc. who needs money or something else i would help etc.
All in all i am Rime Bönpo anno data 2010 when i may say this.....

I see 2 big historical events:

Tibet before 1959
Tibet after 1959

I feel more comfortable in the Tibet after 1959 because here outside Tibet happened more tolleration etc.

Circulaire Dalai Lama in Menri.jpg (76.25 KiB) Viewed 468 times

Here we see the Dalai Lama 14 on the Bön throne with the Bönpo hat and the Yungdrung in his right hand. The Tibetan swastika (卍) is known as g-yung drung and is defined in Tshig mDzod Chen Mo as: permanence (changelessness)
It shows the full acceptance of the Bön tradition as a Tibetan tradition.


One big happening or event was that in 1967 the Dalai Lama 14, proclaimed that Bön formed a part of the Tibetan Traditions and whereas Bön is the oldest Tradition they became on this list the fifth tradition regarding the enumeration system of the Sarma point of view.

Well as You see is this incorrect but nevertheless can we Bönpos feel us very happy that we are not anymore discriminated and seen as outlaws. So the Dalai Lama 14 did a great job outside Tibet and i guess that he never could manage this inside the Tibet from before 1959.

So the exodus had something + for Bönpos but also for us westerns.

Best wishes for our individual emancipation
Kalden Yungdrung

[Sherab]

Bön is Buddhist because this lineage is founded by a Buddha.
But there are more Buddhas of course and Tibet is in my eyes a Buddha Land where once a Buddha lived.
But in India there lived also a Buddha named The Buddha Shakyamuni who is also venerated in Bön as such.
So India is also of course a Buddhaland or a country where once a Buddha did live,historical seen.
We very sure do not have problems or discriminate between Buddhas.
Buddhas do not discriminate between/among Buddhas.
Who do this, are the not Buddhas.

The reality is that there are those who do not believe that Bon is buddhist regardless of what you think. Similarly there are those who do not believe that Dorje Thekpa is buddhist among the followers of sutric Mahayana. And there are those who follow Theravada who do not believe in the Mahayana, let alone Vajrayana.

In the end, all these don't matter because in Buddhism (whichever tradition you follow) it is the application of the teachings that count.

[kalden yungdrung]

Sherab wrote:
The reality is that there are those who do not believe that Bon is buddhist regardless of what you think. Similarly there are those who do not believe that Dorje Thekpa is buddhist among the followers of sutric Mahayana. And there are those who follow Theravada who do not believe in the Mahayana, let alone Vajrayana.

In the end, all these don't matter because in Buddhism (whichever tradition you follow) it is the application of the teachings that count.

Hello Sherab,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes you are right in general Buddhism,there are differences which are harmonised sometimes at the Buddhist conciles.

We know the Mahayana concile from Kashmir where the Mahayana arose as a tradition and was of course not accepted by the Theravadas. Acceptance is only within the lineage of course and not outside.
But it would be anyway nice to have acceptance for others convicitons in "Buddhism".
Therefore is Rime in my eyes a very good movement which shows to us this acceptance or non discrimination.
Know that in spite of the Rime movement and here and there open minded Tibetans and others, the most are blindfolded followers from their tradition because their teachers follow the old stamp of historical facts.
This is very silly that even outside Tibet anno data 2010 there exist this hard discrimination......
But we nevertheless as westerns can change this of course its up to us.

Here the latest concile where the Mahayana and also i guess the Vajrayana were "accepted" in a certain way.

Best wishes for our individual emancipation

Kalden Yungdrung




The World Buddhist Sangha Council was first convened by Theravadins in Sri Lanka in 1966 with the hope of bridging differences and working together. The first convention was attended by leading monks, from many countries and sects, Mahaayaana as well as Theravaada.

The following, written by Ven. Walpola Rahula was approved unanimously.

Basic Points Unifying The Theravaada and the Mahaayaana

1. The Buddha is our only Master.

2. We take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha.

3. We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God.

4. Following the example of the Buddha, who is the embodiment of Great Compassion (mahaa-karu.naa) and Great Wisdom (mahaa- praj~naa), we consider that the purpose of life is to develop compassion for all living beings without discrimination and to work for their good, happiness, and peace; and to develop wisdom leading to the realization of Ultimate Truth.

5. We accept the Four Noble Truths, nameley Dukkha, the Arising of Dukkha, the Cessation of Dukkha, and the Path leading to the Cessation of Dukkha; and the universal law of cause and effect as taught in the pratiitya-samutpaada (Conditioned Genesis or Dependent Origination).

6. We understand, according to the teaching of the Buddha, that all conditioned things (sa.mskaara) are impermanent (anitya) and dukkha, and that all conditioned and unconditioned things (dharma) are without self (anaatma).

7. We accept the Thirty-seven Qualities conducive to Enlightenment (bodhipak.sa-dharma) as different aspects of the Path taught by the Buddha leading to Enlightenment.

8. There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment, according to the ability and capacity of each individual: namely as a disciple (sraavaka), as a Pratyeka-Buddha and as a Samyak-sam-Buddha (perfectly and Fully Enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a Samyak-sam-Buddha in order to save others.

9. We admit that in different countries there are differences with regard to the life of Buddhist monks, popular Buddhist beliefs and practices, rites and ceremonies, customs and habits. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.