Zen has No Morals

Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:15 pm

If teachers don't usually instruct in the direct way, the reason is either that they don't think people will understand it or they don't know it.

Agree. Teaching should fit the student.
In either case it shows that the direct method is for those who are already well prepared.

What do you mean by well prepared? What if you apply a low teaching to a "prepared" student? What if you tell one who is ready for direct teaching, to go and do something contrary? Teaching is chosen for students, but as we are not teachers here, we should talk about how things are, not about how teachings should look for some particular group of recipients.

Rinzai Zen (Japanese) has a clear systematic training programme that actually culminates in the contemplation of the bodhisattva precepts.

And how different it is from the founders (Linji) approach...
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:48 pm

oushi wrote:we should talk about how things are.


And that's why ethics are important to be mentioned, because without it Zen sounds like some abstract idea of a detached mind where there is no cause and effect. From that comes all the actual cases already mentioned.

oushi wrote:And how different it is from the founders (Linji) approach...


The Linji school was founded hundreds of years after Yixuan himself and his Record was rewritten repeatedly. If you want a glimpse of something closer to LInji it is the teachings of the Hongzhou school. There is also an interesting work about his Yulu: The Linji Lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:23 pm

Astus wrote:And that's why ethics are important to be mentioned, because without it Zen sounds like some abstract idea of a detached mind where there is no cause and effect. From that comes all the actual cases already mentioned..

It's not something that needs to sound good.
Astus wrote:The Linji school was founded hundreds of years after Yixuan himself and his Record was rewritten repeatedly

I am not leaning on his authority here, but teachings. You will find the same message in Bodhidharma sermons. But I am not interested in promoting teachings. We can throw them all away, and speak directly revealing the real meaning. What is morality, how is it developed, why people defend it so furiously?
It is conditioned and relative. You wont find two people sharing the same moral conduct. For one society it is not ok when woman shows her face, and for another it is ok to eat people. Which one if the right one? None. Because if you have some ideal path in you mind, you will develop desire for it. Buddhism is not about fitting into a model, it's about ending craving. It does not matter what is the object of desire, it still will create suffering.

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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:00 pm

oushi wrote:What is morality, how is it developed, why people defend it so furiously?


Morality in Buddhism is defined by the correct behaviour in body and speech. What correct behaviour consists of is given in the ten virtuous deeds and others. It is part of both the noble eightfold path and the six paramitas, therefore they lead to both temporary and ultimate liberation from suffering. This answers your three questions.

oushi wrote:It is conditioned and relative. You wont find two people sharing the same moral conduct.


It is exactly because of being conditioned that it has effect. If by relative you mean that people have different ideas of what is good and bad, you are right. However, Buddhism is not based on the opinion of ordinary people and has a set of moral principles. Also, karma is infallible regardless of what someone believes about right and wrong. The difference between a layman, a novice, a monk and a bodhisattva primarily depends on their respective precepts, the precepts are what give the fundamental cohesion and structure of the community. It is not a question of individual opinions, even when in the daily application of precepts there is some relative freedom.

oushi wrote:Buddhism is not about fitting into a model, it's about ending craving. It does not matter what is the object of desire, it still will create suffering.


How do you end craving? With the practice of morality, meditation and wisdom. Desire is indeed the cause of suffering. The desire to be free from desire, however, is the cause of liberation. That's how there is also a path and not just a goal.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:14 pm

oushi wrote:
In both situations it has to do with ones mind.

So? It's conditioned.
That's right, that's why it creates karmic outcomes.
Longchenpa wrote:The most excellent hyper-yogin or yogini, therefore, lacks moral discrimination yet always acts harmoniously and appropriately. Recognizing all appearances as perfect images of gnosis there is no escape from pristine awareness.
Well that doesn't really describe me, so I guess I just have to keep up the ethical conduct then.
In truth, cause and effect cannot be distinguished because there is no change between one moment and the next. Therefore, moral causality is never true for anyone, and particularly not for the yogin or yogini, for whom it does not exist even as a lie—karmic maturation cannot be experienced!
Buddhas can distinguish the momentary changes. Anyway, Longchenpa is talking about karma being incapable of effecting the tathagatagarbha, he is not talking about it not effecting the conditioned mind. Don't quote out of context. Anyway, again you have fallen into the trap of ignoring relative truth in preference to ultimate truth. One does not unify the two truths by ignoring one or the other.
Quite clear, isn't it?
Crystal clear.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:22 pm

Astus wrote:This answers your three questions.

No it doesn't as I didn't ask for definitions but for inquiry.
Astus wrote:Also, karma is infallible regardless of what someone believes about right and wrong.

That would mean that belief is out of causality. Karma is not a magical force behind the scenes. You wont cumulative bad karma from actions that you see as right.
Astus wrote:The difference between a layman, a novice, a monk and a bodhisattva ...

No, there is no difference, I wont fall for that.
Astus wrote:How do you end craving? With the practice of morality, meditation and wisdom.

"Because no objects exist which are not me,
You are beyond perspective or meditation.
Because there does not exist any protection other than me,
You are beyond charismatic activity to be sought.
Because there is no state other then me,
You are beyond stages to cultivate.
Because there is nowhere to go apart from me,
One is beyond paths to traverse."


And because of that:

"Even though one lives on a lonely mountain peak, eats a single meal at dawn, meditates without lying down through the six periods of practice, he is only a Karma-producing man."
"You say you train in the Six Perfections and the Ten Thousand Practices. As I see it, they are all productive of Karma. To seek the Buddha, to seek the Dharma, those produce only Karma in hell. To seek the Bodhisattvas is again producing Karma. Reading the Sutras and Treatises also produces Karma."


It may not be easy to understand, although it is very simple. It may look scary if one lack self-trust. But it makes perfect sense. That is why I mostly ask questions, so the interlocutor can inquiry on his own. And I can inquiry with him. When I saw the face of my conscience for the first time I was aghast. I couldn't believe it and I knew no one will. Kept so close as precious, is nothing but a parasite. But when you see what's inside this cage, you wont have doubt. And it is enough to honestly look at it, forgive oneself everything that we felt guilt of and everything that we may feel guilt of. There is no wrong. Just drop that cage that pretends to defend you. Aren't you afraid of being wrong? Of being immoral? Of doing something that others would see as inappropriate? That is self inflicted suffering that produces karma over and over again. You can practice meditation for years and maybe you will somehow, someday, realize it out of nowhere. Here, I give it to you freely. Just relax and forgive yourself... everything. Can you trust yourself, or you need those barriers developed by others to tame you?
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:31 pm

oushi wrote:It may look scary if one lack self-trust.
Show me the self and I will trust it. All I see is ego-centred pride and arrogance.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:36 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:It may look scary if one lack self-trust.
Show me the self and I will trust it. All I see is ego-centred pride and arrogance.
:namaste:

Because you judge yourself to harshly. Start loving yourself and you will soon start to love all, as there is nothing experienced that is not self.
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:33 pm

oushi wrote:Karma is not a magical force behind the scenes. You wont cumulative bad karma from actions that you see as right.


Karma is not magical, only natural. There are situations where people say it is all right to kill, steal, cheat, etc., and one can actually be in situations when it feels acceptable to kill, steal, cheat, and so on. Does that make it ethical? In fact, people necessarily choose what they think is the best choice. And yes, there can be conflict between what they believe is morally right and what is right at the moment. But if such a relativist attitude were true, then only those could experience any negative karma who have an internal moral conflict. That is, not many people. And that makes the whole teaching of karma useless. It's rather the opposite in Buddhism. Karma is a teaching about how the mind functions, how different attitudes and actions create imprints in the mind, and then how those imprints change one's experience. The twelve links of dependent origination is an easy example for this. It is not some made up religious phantasm to scare little children but something that is based on meditative observation of the mind. On the night of his enlightenment Siddhartha saw first his previous lives and then saw how beings are reborn according to their actions, and then realised the ending of all defilements. This is understanding the second noble truth, the origin of suffering, and the realisation of the third truth, the end of suffering. Not understanding the cause of the problem can only result in being unable to solve it. That's why the four noble truths are the core teachings of the Buddha.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:19 am

Astus wrote:But if such a relativist attitude were true, then only those could experience any negative karma who have an internal moral conflict. That is, not many people

That is almost all the people. Those big moral conflicts like killing or stealing are just small fraction of what is going on. Small conflicts are numberless and present in every moment.
Longchenpa wrote:By practicing this self-liberation which is without duality, the castle of antidotes and rejections crumbles. The watchman who attends to the antidotes is destroyed.


Every thoughts is driven by desire to avoid, or decrease the negative outcome of an moral breach. People create antidotes in their mind to prepare for future situations. If something troubles you, you will be flooded with thoughts about it. Cage is build from inside. You can build it from golden bars and wait few lifetimes until you fit. The best way is to go into mountains for a life long, lonely retreat, because if you breach such highly admired, golden rule, karma will be incredibly large. "Far better it is to have nothing further to seek, to be simple and plain."
That is the difference between between gradual and direct.

There was another attempt to spread this message. It is called Christianity. Jesus actually gave his life away, just to convince people that all their past and future sins and moral breaches are forgiven. Just believe in it, and you are released... But people need rules to obey, masters to listen, so they lost the real meaning and created another moral system.
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:00 am

oushi wrote:Because you judge yourself to harshly. Start loving yourself and you will soon start to love all, as there is nothing experienced that is not self.
New age nonsense, further attachment to self and experiences is not the path to liberation:
(49) As it’s true what I’ve said about self-centered interest,
I recognize clearly my enemy now.
I recognize clearly the bandit who plunders,
The liar who lures by pretending he’s part of me;
Oh what relief that I’ve conquered this doubt!

(50) And so Yamantaka, spin round with great power
The wheel of sharp weapons of good actions now.
Three times turn it round, in your wrathful-like aspect
Your legs set apart for the two grades of truth,
With your eyes blazing open for wisdom and means.

(51) Baring your fangs of the four great opponents,
Devour the foe – our cruel selfish concern!
With your powerful mantra of cherishing others,
Demolish this enemy lurking within!

(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle,
We are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done
Returning upon us; we are out of control.
This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us,
Deceiving ourselves and all others as well
Capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka,
Summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart
Of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves!
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern!
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

(54) Hum! Hum! Show all your powers, O mighty protector.
Dza! Dza! Tie up this enemy; do not let him loose.
P’at! P’at! Set us free by your might, O great Lord over Death.
Cut! Cut! Break the knot of self-interest that binds us inside.

(55) Appear Yamantaka, O wrathful protector;
I have further entreaties to make of you still.
This sack of five poisons, mistakes and delusion
Drags us down in the quicksand of life’s daily toil
Cut it off, cut it off, rip it to shreds!
Excerpt from The Wheel of Sharp Weapons by Dharmarakshita
Image
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:48 am

Oushi,

"Far better it is to have nothing further to seek, to be simple and plain."

That's good, no disagreement with that. Question really is, if it were so simple and easy, how on earth could supposedly enlightened Zen teachers commit such misconducts?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:51 am

Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.

- Buddha Sakyamuni new age nonsense
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:28 am

oushi wrote:Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.

- Buddha Sakyamuni new age nonsense
Yes, this is basically the starting point of Tonglen training. The starting point. It is an attempt to equalise self and others in order to then start to work for the benefit of all beings rather than just the self. It does not mean that the self is the centre of the universe.
:namaste:
PS Source please!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:36 am

Astus wrote:Oushi,

"Far better it is to have nothing further to seek, to be simple and plain."

That's good, no disagreement with that. Question really is, if it were so simple and easy, how on earth could supposedly enlightened Zen teachers commit such misconducts?

How do you measure enlightenment? You used "supposedly" because you don't know. You think I will? Buddha is not found in appearances. If you believe in morality as a measure of enlightenment, you will be driven by assumptions.

Bodhidharma wrote:Devils and demons possess the power of manifestation. They can create the appearance of
bodhisattvas in all sorts of guises. But they’re false. None of them are Buddhas. The Buddha
is your own mind. Don’t misdirect your worship.


Go for direct meaning, don't waste your time for local gossips. Only because people are looking for the Buddha outside, they fall prey to charlatans.
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:43 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.

- Buddha Sakyamuni new age nonsense

Yes, this is basically the starting point of Tonglen training. The starting point. It is an attempt to equalise self and others in order to then start to work for the benefit of all beings rather than just the self. It does not mean that the self is the centre of the universe.
:namaste:
PS Source please!

Tonglen is new age nonsense too?
And what is the center of the universe?
Show me the self and I will trust it

Read this sentence until you understand its nonsense.

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.01.than.html
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:05 am

oushi wrote:Tonglen is new age nonsense too?
Άλλα διαβάζεις άλλα καταλαβαίνεις!
And what is the center of the universe?
Exactly!
Read this sentence until you understand its nonsense.
It is meant to be nonsense. Stop trying to "know" everything! :tongue:
Thank you!
:namaste:
PS This conversation is now officially over too! :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:23 am

oushi wrote:How do you measure enlightenment? You used "supposedly" because you don't know. You think I will? Buddha is not found in appearances. If you believe in morality as a measure of enlightenment, you will be driven by assumptions.


If buddha-nature contains perfect morality, by enlightenment it should naturally manifest in all one's actions as buddha activity.

oushi wrote:Go for direct meaning, don't waste your time for local gossips. Only because people are looking for the Buddha outside, they fall prey to charlatans.


Was it your idea to choose direct over gradual? Was it you who invented what direct is? If no, then you have already relied on others.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:06 am

Astus wrote:If buddha-nature contains perfect morality, by enlightenment it should naturally manifest in all one's actions as buddha activity.

What is perfect morality? Can you describe it? Buddha nature contains everything, there is no duality.
Was it your idea to choose direct over gradual? Was it you who invented what direct is? If no, then you have already relied on others.

1. Gradual, from definition, is an approach of those that don't know.
2. My direct approach came from inquiry. Scriptures came later. It is great fun to read them. Before that, you need to see, that is why I ask questions. There is no point of just repeating after masters.
3. All relies on the teacher.

If ignorance wouldn't look precious, people wouldn't fall for it.
Hakuin wrote:Suppose a wealthy man mistakenly hired a master thief of the greatest skill and cunning to guard his house and, after seeing his granaries, treasures, and the rest of his fortune dwindle by the day, had several suspicious servants seized, and ordered the thief to interrogate them around the clock until they confessed. The family would be worried sick, the household on the brink of bankruptcy, yet the fortune would go on shrinking as before. All because of the man's original mistake in employing and placing his trust in a thief.

Who is judging you behavior, who is judging you thoughts?
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Re: Zen has No Morals

Postby Astus » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:35 am

oushi wrote:What is perfect morality? Can you describe it?


Mentioned before, the 10 virtuous acts and others describe it fine. In brief, it is harmlessness and compassion.

oushi wrote:1. Gradual, from definition, is an approach of those that don't know.
2. My direct approach came from inquiry. Scriptures came later. It is great fun to read them. Before that, you need to see, that is why I ask questions. There is no point of just repeating after masters.
3. All relies on the teacher.


1. Those who already know need no instructions.
2. Inquiry is needed when one is without knowledge, and by inquiring one goes through a gradual investigation.
3. In that case, it is not based on one's own buddha-mind.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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