Pratyutpanna Sutra

Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Aemilius » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:59 am

Nosta wrote:First, thank you very much for your answer.
:)


So, Buddhas cannot achieve Nirvana if they want to save beings?

I tought that being a Buddha was the same as being in Nirvana and while Nirvana, one can manifest to other beings in ways that may help them.

This is the kind of questions that always make me confused.


I think you understand it right. The point is made in Mahayana that the activity of Buddhas' to help beings appears effortlesly, like the moon's reflection in a pool of water appears effortlesly. This means that their help is not willed but happens automatically. It is called Unfixed Nirvana, apratisthita nirvana, to distinguish it from the sravakayana nirvana.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Nosta » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:28 am

I see. So, Buddha Shakyamuni cannot help us any more (in a direct way, but His teachings still prevail and thats a halp too), but Amitabha can help since he didnt achieve Nirvana (the final stage) yet.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:42 pm

Nosta wrote:I see. So, Buddha Shakyamuni cannot help us any more...


No. Forget about nirvana.

All Buddhas & Bodhisattvas have resolved to help us over vast numbers of lifetimes. Their vows are so sincere and thus powerful, that they maintain an ability to always help all beings.
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby sinweiy » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:35 pm

that say Buddhas, mahasattvas neither abide in samsara non nirvana. arhats abide in nirvana.

say if we are studing in a school and eventually need to graduate by passing the final exams. so some of them in order to help their fellow classmates, they delay passing the final exams. this i think represent the bodhisattvas, while those who graduated represent the arahats. and a real bodhisattva is one who HAS the ability to pass the final exams with flying colors but just that in order to stay in the class/school, they purposely delay passing the final exams.

Amitabha perhaps is one who "graduated" but return to the school as a teacher/principle. ;)

aggregates could be a skillful mean for a Buddha/bodhisattva need to have in order to help sentient beings.
like wrathful bodhisattvas for example. an anger is made for the sake of sentient beings' realisation.
_/\_
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby LastLegend » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:18 pm

Nosta,

Nirvana of Arahants is different from Nirvana of Buddhas. Nirvana of Arahants is abiding and still within the 10 Dharma realms-6 (human, animal, hell, etc) still take rebirths, other 4 (Arahant, Prechy Buddha, certain Bodhisattvas, etc) don't take rebirths. Full complete Buddhas are Shakyumuni, Amitabha, Medicine, etc. Buddhas still help sentient beings, and they never stop.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Aemilius » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:37 am

LastLegend wrote:Nosta,

Nirvana of Arahants is different from Nirvana of Buddhas. Nirvana of Arahants is abiding and still within the 10 Dharma realms-6 (human, animal, hell, etc) still take rebirths, other 4 (Arahant, Prechy Buddha, certain Bodhisattvas, etc) don't take rebirths. Full complete Buddhas are Shakyumuni, Amitabha, Medicine, etc. Buddhas still help sentient beings, and they never stop.


The scriptures say there is the last mental moment in the consciousness moments of an Arhant. Like there is the last moment of the flame of a candle. That sounds pretty final, doesn't it?
It is incorrect to say that an Arahant exists, or doesn't exist, both or neither. Same is true of Nirvana.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby LastLegend » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:44 am

Aemilius wrote: It is incorrect to say that an Arahant exists, or doesn't exist, both or neither. Same is true of Nirvana.


Where do Arahants abide if not in Nirvana?

There is clear difference between enlightenments of an Arahant and that of a full Buddha. So what you are trying to tell me here?
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Aemilius » Tue May 08, 2012 8:36 am

LastLegend wrote:
Aemilius wrote: It is incorrect to say that an Arahant exists, or doesn't exist, both or neither. Same is true of Nirvana.


Where do Arahants abide if not in Nirvana?

There is clear difference between enlightenments of an Arahant and that of a full Buddha. So what you are trying to tell me here?


Nirvana is indescribable. We cannot usefully talk about it.

We can talk about different detergents, because we know about them in our own experience, because we have been washing dishes ourselves.

Even when you have attained birth in the four formless realms, it is difficult to locate your existence. Because you are infinite space, or infinite consciousness, etc...

And much more so with Nirvana, that is described by the four limits!
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Tenso » Tue May 08, 2012 9:32 am

Nosta wrote:I see. So, Buddha Shakyamuni cannot help us any more (in a direct way, but His teachings still prevail and thats a halp too), but Amitabha can help since he didnt achieve Nirvana (the final stage) yet.


Shakyamuni is said to have attained enlightenment aeons ago.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Nosta » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:58 pm

This is a very beautiful sutra. I am translating it to portuguese since i dont find any portuguese version anywhere.

I am near the end of chapter 2, but i would like to know the meaning of the title os the sutra: Pratyutpanna Buddha Sammukhāvasthita Samādhi. What does that mean? I know the words Buddha and Samadhi :D, but not the others neither the complete meaning of the sentence.

Thanks.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby viniketa » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:48 am

Nosta wrote:i would like to know the meaning of the title os the sutra: Pratyutpanna Buddha Sammukhāvasthita Samādhi. What does that mean? I know the words Buddha and Samadhi :D, but not the others neither the complete meaning of the sentence.


The Samādhi of Direct Encounter with Buddhas of the Present


:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Aemilius » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:17 am

viniketa wrote:
Nosta wrote:i would like to know the meaning of the title os the sutra: Pratyutpanna Buddha Sammukhāvasthita Samādhi. What does that mean? I know the words Buddha and Samadhi :D, but not the others neither the complete meaning of the sentence.


The Samādhi of Direct Encounter with Buddhas of the Present


:namaste:


I don't think there is plural in the sanskrit Buddha. It has been previously translated as "Samadhi that is Established in the Presence of the Contemporary Buddha", by Luis O. Gomez in Land of Bliss: The Paradise of the Buddha of Measureless Light.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Nosta » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:34 pm

Thank you!
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:17 am

Bodhisattvas hear about the Buddha Amitābha and call him to mind again and again in this land. Because of this calling to mind, they see the Buddha Amitābha. Having seen him they ask him what dharmas it takes to be born in the realm of the Buddha Amitābha. Then the Buddha Amitābha says to these bodhisattvas: "If you wish to come and be born in my realm, you must always call me to mind again and again, you must always keep this thought in mind without letting up, and thus you will succeed in coming to be born in my realm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyutpa ... S%C5%ABtra


Is there a difference between the word "realm and "land," as in "Pure Land"?
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby sth9784 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:38 am

Serenity509 wrote:
Bodhisattvas hear about the Buddha Amitābha and call him to mind again and again in this land. Because of this calling to mind, they see the Buddha Amitābha. Having seen him they ask him what dharmas it takes to be born in the realm of the Buddha Amitābha. Then the Buddha Amitābha says to these bodhisattvas: "If you wish to come and be born in my realm, you must always call me to mind again and again, you must always keep this thought in mind without letting up, and thus you will succeed in coming to be born in my realm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyutpa ... S%C5%ABtra


Is there a difference between the word "realm and "land," as in "Pure Land"?


I wouldn't think there is any difference. In the same Sutra it is also called the Buddha Field.

"The Buddha said: "By virtue of these dharmas of conduct one brings about the meditation and then masters the Meditation in Which the Buddhas of the Present All Stand Before One. By what means does one bring about the Meditation in Which the Buddhas of the Present All Stand Before One? In this way, Bhadrapala: if there are any monks or nuns, laymen or laywomen who keep the precepts in their entirety, they should settle down somewhere all alone and call to mind the presence of the Buddha Amitabha in the western quarter; then, in accordance with what they have learned, they should reflect that a thousand million myriad Buddha-fields away from here, in his land called SukhavatI, in the midst of a host of bodhisattvas, he is preaching the sutras. Let them all constantly call to mind the Buddha Amitabha." - taken from Paul Harrison's translation in the BDK edition with the Surangama Samadhi Sutra
Last edited by sth9784 on Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pratyutpanna Sutra

Postby Bakmoon » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:39 am

Nosta wrote:I see. So, Buddha Shakyamuni cannot help us any more (in a direct way, but His teachings still prevail and thats a halp too), but Amitabha can help since he didnt achieve Nirvana (the final stage) yet.

I think the more likely meaning of that passage in the Samdhinirmocana Sutra is that it is referring to the teaching that a fully Enlightened Buddha doesn't pass into Parinirvana and then not help living beings anymore, but that they merely manifest a showing of passing away into Parinirvana to instill a sense of urgency. This is mentioned in Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra where the Buddha says:

"Thus, since I attained Buddhahood, an extremely long period of time has passed. My life span is an immeasurable number of asamkhya kalpas, and during that time I have constantly abided here without ever entering extinction. Good men, originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed. Now, however, although in fact I do not actually enter extinction, I announce that I am going to adopt the course of extinction. This is an expedient means which the Thus Come One uses to teach and convert living beings.

"Why do I do this? Because if the Buddha remains in the world for a long time, those persons with shallow virtue will fail to plant good roots but, living in poverty and lowliness, will become attached to the five desires and be caught in the net of deluded thoughts and imaginings. If they see that the Thus Come One is constantly in the world and never enters extinction, they will grow arrogant and selfish, or become discouraged and neglectful. They will fail to realize how difficult it is to encounter the Buddha and will not approach him with a respectful and reverent mind.


But a Buddha can still send out other emanation bodies to help living beings, and also help by teaching high level bodhisattvas with their Sambhogakaya in their pure land.
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