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To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana? - Dhamma Wheel

To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Yes.
18
86%
No.
2
10%
I don't know.
1
5%
 
Total votes: 21

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kc2dpt
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To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:17 pm

Nibbana is the fourth noble truth, the goal of the path. Considering how often I see people demand proof of other teachings in Buddhism it is a wonder to me no one asks for proof for this, most fundamental aspect of Buddhism. And yet I wager more people in history have personally seen rebirth than have seen Nibbana.

So while we're discussing which parts of the teachings are necessary to call oneself a Buddhist, let's discuss this teaching: the complete ending of suffering, Nibbana.
- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:32 pm

Greetings Peter

First of all good idea for topic,


I voted yes, if one doesnt whats the point in even practicing (or practicing hard so just keeping basic morality etc)

The whole teaching is about dukkha and its final ending, if there were no ending it be a pointless teaching since it didnt lead anywhere, there would only be two truths and so no hope of a way out

So to in short yes, to be considered a fully devote, practicing follower of the Buddha IMO one has to accept that nibbana exsists and can be reached



Slightly off topic note, i think what we need is to bring all these kind of topics together under a serious discussion of right view, what is included and excluded and how it effects practice. Most of the controversial points i see being discussed are in relation to right view, never right effort, mindfulness, speech etc.


Metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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pink_trike
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:40 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:46 am

To be clear, by "accept" I mean "accept as something one can attain" and not necessarily something you think you will attain in this life.
- Peter


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:15 am

To be super simplistic here, you're a Buddhist if you've taken refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. So yes, confidence in the 4NT (dhamma) seems necessary to be Buddhist.

:juggling:
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:37 am

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby pink_trike » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:42 am

For me, again, it is the idea that someone "_must_ accept" something to "be a Buddhist" that I find foreign...I wonder if this is an internet phenomenon. In 30 years of living a life that has been saturated with Buddhists, teachers, trainings, and retreats I have never heard this topic even come up for discussion, except now in internet forums. Perhaps this view represents a general lack of access to teachers? Cuz teachers generally slap questions like this down pretty fast and point us back to practice.

Anyways...

I'm cool with Nibbana, but let's not discuss it in too much detail...I'd probably start picking at "attain". :smile:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Dan74
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:01 am

_/|\_

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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby pink_trike » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:35 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Cittasanto
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:56 am

their is no must accept anything within Buddhism so no! see the truth for yourself and accept what is true, not accept this and that to be a Buddhist, see and know for yourself


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Ben
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:12 am

Hi Peter

If we take 'buddhist' to mean someone who has taken refuge in triple gem, then i'm not sure whether that means the same as accepting nibbana as achievable. I think for many of us we are initially attacted to the Dhamma because of our own experience of the intractible nature of samsara where everything is dukkha. The Dhamma offers us something that we desire, which is a promise of an end of dukkha. But at that point we may not know, directly know that Nibbana is achievable. So I think that to know, to truely know that Nibbana is achievable, one would need to have tasted Nibbana and be a sotapanna.
Until then, our acceptance of Nibbana is an acceptance based on logical inference or in some small part, faith.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:51 pm

- Peter


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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:53 pm

- Peter


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:05 pm

Regarding having confidence in the Buddha's teachings on rebirth, nibanna, and all the central aspects of Buddhism, I think of it like this:

If I want proof before believing these things for myself, it is good enough for me if someone has died, taken rebirth, achieved liberation, and told us, "I've see this, I don't want it for you, and here's how you can stop it." If I wait to experience it for myself, I'll either be dead and taking another rebirth out of ignorance, or I'll be doubting nibanna for the next umpteen lives. So it is proof positive for me that somebody only a couple of thousand years ago experienced it and told us about it. Unless you think the Buddha was incoherent or kooky, he's etched out a fine path that we can follow.

My two cents :namaste:

Edited to add: I know that many people don't like ritual and fancy Buddhist-stuffs. But I'll you that from my pov, people who struggle with parts of the Buddha's dhamma might find spending time daily really focusing on venerating the Buddha might be useful. I know I might make people mad by saying that, but it's just my opinion


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Cittasanto
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:48 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:57 pm

- Peter


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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:06 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:47 pm

1) We can have theory's about what is possible and accept them as true based upon evidence which we trust.

2) We can be doubtful about there being any outcome which is greater than what we have already experienced.

3)We can have confidence that there is always a better outcome and that it is always possible.


I choose #3 and I will follow the advise of those who inspire this confidence in me. Since it is Buddhist teachings and practitioners who inspire this confidence I think it is safe to say that I am a Buddhist. If I were to reject or accept a portion of the teachings without knowing their validity or lack thereof within my own experience that would simply take the wind out my sails so to speak.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:49 pm

- Peter


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Re: To be a Buddhist you must accept Nibbana?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:14 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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