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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:57 pm 
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From what i get from the first few verses , I understand that
the sutra states all panca skandas are empty ( does not exist by itself but exists as a whole being),
and since the synergy of panca skandas make up an individual , so how do we further expand this ?

I mean so what if our panca skandas are empty ? What we experience is still real, so what if the panca skandas have to synergize for an experience ? We still eat , drink, work , etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:46 pm 
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It means that the things do not have any inherent meaning of their own. Rather, they have a meaning that we, experiencing them, ascribe to them. Does that help?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:50 pm 
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wongsor wrote:
From what i get from the first few verses , I understand that
the sutra states all panca skandas are empty ( does not exist by itself but exists as a whole being),
and since the synergy of panca skandas make up an individual , so how do we further expand this ?

I mean so what if our panca skandas are empty ? What we experience is still real, so what if the panca skandas have to synergize for an experience ? We still eat , drink, work , etc.


No. The meaning of Heart Sutra is the skhandas do not arise, that all experience is an illusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:30 am 
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wongsor wrote:
From what i get from the first few verses , I understand that
the sutra states all panca skandas are empty ( does not exist by itself but exists as a whole being),
and since the synergy of panca skandas make up an individual , so how do we further expand this ?

I mean so what if our panca skandas are empty ? What we experience is still real, so what if the panca skandas have to synergize for an experience ? We still eat , drink, work , etc.


Form is emptiness, emptiness form. Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness is exactly form.

So all phenomena is dependent arising. Your observation about the panca skandas is extended to all phenomena - rain, the sky, people, our solar system, life, death, etc. All animate and inanimate phenomena. There are three phenomena that lay outside of this (space, an Arhat's cessation and one other - but in Zen this might be disputed [an Arhat's cessation for example refers I think to enlightenment - enlightenment is unconditioned but in Zen people would say that an Arhat can't attain enlightenment without practice so in this way enlightenment is a dependent arising).

All of the middle 1/3 -> the last 1/5th of the common version of the Heart Sutra deal with dependent arising in all phenomena in terms of the non-inherent existence of phenomena including the skandhas and the 12 links of Dependent Arising , both of which are used explicitly to illustrate the teaching.

The final fifth of the Heart Sutra designates this teaching as the practice of Bodhisattvas whose mastery and realization completely overcomes all suffering.

Kirt

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 Post subject: hmmmm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:31 pm 
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So far what I understand from emptiness in the panca skandas goes like
1) We see an object (form)
2) we recognize that it is a beautiful woman (perception)
3) we feel happy (emotions)
4) we smile then approach her for closure (mental formations)
5) we are aware during the whole incident ( consciousness)

What emptiness means is that no. 1 to 5 has to exist together, no.1 cannot exist by itself, 2 and 3 cannot exist by themselves, you need the whole 1 2 3 4 5.
Thus they are said to be devoid of inherent existence. So what is the significance of emptiness ? So what if 1,2,3,4,5 has to exist together ?

For the experience above, if we were blind , we won't see the beautiful girl , thus the whole experience is changed.
If we cannot perceive that the object is a girl , then we won't do anything.
If we cannot feel any emotion, we won't approach her or even smile.
If we have no mental formation, then we can't smile and approach her for closure.
If we have no consciousness, then we can't process 1 to 4.


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 Post subject: Re: hmmmm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:35 pm 
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wongsor wrote:
So what is the significance of emptiness ? So what if 1,2,3,4,5 has to exist together ?


I don't think the significant point is that the skandhas are dependent on one another. I think the point is, the skandhas are dependent on causes and conditions, constantly in flux, thus they have no independent nature. And since the skandhas comprise everything you can identify as a self, this means that the self has no independent existence, therefore empty.

As for the significance of the claim that self and all phenomena are empty - if you hear that and you still relate to self/pheomena as if it is real, it simply means that there is something unimaginable for you to discover, if you choose to pursue it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:07 pm 
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first understand when lord Avalokiteshavara starts to say the "empty" thing.

understand that these statements is from the point of one who has realized emptiness.

many people misunderstand that things are empty to them. and fall into nihilism.

in fact the empty here means dependent arising. not non existing at all.

Please submit this sharing to examination. I only have basic knowledge after reading commentaries. Therefore i am not 100% i am capable to reproduce what i have read or even understood the text correctly.


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