Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby dzoki » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:40 pm

mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
viniketa wrote:
Matylda wrote:The problem was rather with first translation into English of Japanese Buddhist literature which tend either to christian words or to philosophical and lost their Buddhist meaning.


:D This has happened a lot, and not just translation from Japanese! :D

If someone knows of a list of Abhidharma terms that might get the ball rolling, perhaps that could be posted here.


Here is a very small start of about 80 terms that I made in 2009 and abandoned shortly thereafter. This list should not be considered reliable.


Hi, thanks, that is wonderful! I took a liberty of filling in some tibetan and devanagari terms, I hope you don´t mind, I will post it tomorrow, when it is ready.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Namgyal » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:46 pm

Huseng wrote: Zen/Chan terms largely evolved out of native Chinese monasteries and ideas. They don't correspond to Indian thought, so tracing them to Sanskrit and then Tibetan is impossible. You can easily find the equivalent terms in the case of Abhidharma, but not Chan. Chan specific terms won't exist in Tibetan.


Malcolm wrote: Well, that just isn't true actually.


Sara H wrote: Oh, I'm not so sure about that... *grins*


Matylda wrote: No that is not so..


What's Wu-wei in Tibetan?
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby dzoki » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:22 pm

Raksha wrote:What's Wu-wei in Tibetan?


I´d say "bays med".
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby viniketa » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:57 pm

mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:Here is a very small start of about 80 terms that I made in 2009 and abandoned shortly thereafter. This list should not be considered reliable.


Thanks for the contribution!

dzoki wrote:
Raksha wrote:What's Wu-wei in Tibetan?


I´d say "bays med".


Perhaps you meant byas med? Maybe...

Wu-wei is Tao/Daoist, so there's probably not going to be good correspondence in most languages. In Sanskrit, closest might be dharmatā... ??

:namaste:
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby dzoki » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:46 pm

viniketa wrote:
mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:Here is a very small start of about 80 terms that I made in 2009 and abandoned shortly thereafter. This list should not be considered reliable.


Thanks for the contribution!

dzoki wrote:
Raksha wrote:What's Wu-wei in Tibetan?


I´d say "bays med".


Perhaps you meant byas med? Maybe...

Wu-wei is Tao/Daoist, so there's probably not going to be good correspondence in most languages. In Sanskrit, closest might be dharmatā... ??

:namaste:


uups, sorry for a typo. Well I wouldn´t say dharmata, as far as I understand this, wu-wei is basicaly a state beyond concepts although maintained somewhat with contrivance like a state of shamatha as apposed to wei-wu-wei which fully integrated with everything and does not require any effort. Anyways this is not my own idea,it is based upon what was told to me by a friend who dabbled a little in this chan thing, but he is also not really a chan practitioner, so he might be wrong too.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Namgyal » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:53 pm

viniketa wrote: Wu-wei is Tao/Daoist, so there's probably not going to be good correspondence in most languages.


Sorry, that was a bit silly :tongue: It's just a trick question, because it doesn't have any correspondences. Wu-wei can only be fully understood in Chinese or related ideographic languages. As well as Taoism, it is a vitally important part of Ch'an Buddhist philosophy. So my conclusion is that Huseng was right, and Malcolm was wrong, baby, wrong!!!! ;)
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby viniketa » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:59 pm

Raksha wrote:
viniketa wrote: Wu-wei is Tao/Daoist, so there's probably not going to be good correspondence in most languages.


Sorry, that was a bit silly :tongue: It's just a trick question, because it doesn't have any correspondences. Wu-wei can only be fully understood in Chinese or related ideographic languages. As well as Taoism, it is a vitally important part of Ch'an Buddhist philosophy. So my conclusion is that Huseng was right, and Malcolm was wrong, baby, wrong!!!! ;)


Rather obvious it was a trick question... I'd say both Huseng and Malcolm were correct, as there will be some but not all terms that have cognates.

I'd also say Raksha needs to come on down off that dead horse and stop beating it...

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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby mutsuk » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:13 am

Perhaps you meant byas med? Maybe...


It is bya-bral.

Wu-wei is Tao/Daoist, so there's probably not going to be good correspondence in most languages. In Sanskrit, closest might be dharmatā... ??
[/quote]

No, dharmatā is chos-nyiid which is faxing 法性 in chinese.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby dzoki » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:59 am

dzoki wrote:
mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:Here is a very small start of about 80 terms that I made in 2009 and abandoned shortly thereafter. This list should not be considered reliable.


Hi, thanks, that is wonderful! I took a liberty of filling in some tibetan and devanagari terms, I hope you don´t mind, I will post it tomorrow, when it is ready.


Ok here it is, whatever I added is in green, plus I corrected (in red) loka for it´s Tibetan equivalent ´jig rten. ´gro as was in the original is equivalent of sankrit gamanam - going.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby viniketa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:56 pm

mutsuk wrote:It is bya-bral.


Yes, I think so. It seems the current interpretation of wu-wei is "non-action." Which, in Sanskrit would be: akriya.

mutsuk wrote:No, dharmatā is chos-nyiid which is faxing 法性 in chinese.


Is the double-i spelling standard Wylie, or is that more of a pronunciation guide? I found chos nyid translated as direct cognate with dharmatā.

Thanks! :thanks:

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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby viniketa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:01 pm

dzoki wrote:Ok here it is, whatever I added is in green, plus I corrected (in red) loka for it´s Tibetan equivalent ´jig rten. ´gro as was in the original is equivalent of sankrit gamanam - going.


Thanks, dzoki!

I wish I had more time to start a wiki right now with these terms. I might be able to start it in about a week or so. Categorization, I think, will be critical to the usefulness of such a wiki.

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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby mutsuk » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:50 pm

viniketa wrote:Is the double-i spelling standard Wylie, or is that more of a pronunciation guide? I found chos nyid translated as direct cognate with dharmatā.

It's a typo, I hadn't my glasses when typing... the correct spelling is indeed chos-nyid.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Sheila » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:51 am

Some say wu wei is equivalent to Sanskrit asaṃskṛta.

"Dao’an (ad 312–85) criticized the Prajñāschools, challenging their faithfulness to authentic Buddhist positions as well as the translation methodologies behind the texts they and other Chinese Buddhists had come to rely on. In particular, he criticized the practice of ‘matching the meanings’ (geyi), by which translators seeking Chinese equivalents for Indian Buddhist technical terms and concepts borrowed heavily from Daoist literature. This ‘matching of meanings’ was a mixed blessing. Packaging Buddhist ideas in familiar terms made them amenable and understandable, but the ‘matches’ were often less than perfect, distorting or misrepresenting Buddhism. For instance, early translators chose a well-known Daoist and Confucian term, wuwei (nondeliberative activity), to translate nirvāṇa. Arguably, wuwei and nirvāṇa represent the teloi of Daoism and Buddhism, respectively, but it is not obvious that they denote the same telos (see Daoist philosophy §6; Nirvāṇa). Later, to emphasize the uniqueness of Buddhist nirvāṇa, translators dropped wuwei in favour of a transliteration, niepan. Wuwei was retained to render another important Buddhist notion, asaṃskṛta (unconditioned)."

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/G002SECT2
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Sara H » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:58 am

So, I'll be specific,
what do Tibetan Buddhists refer to kensho as?

Is there a specific term, of is it simply voiced more poetically, such as "such and such has seen their own Nature". ?
Or is there some sortof innitatiatory empowerment/level that is given that sortof indirectly depends on it without directly referring to it?
(I apologize if I'm not referring to things correctly, I'm not as familiar with Tibetan Buddhism as I am with Zen.)

Thank you.

In Gassho,

Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby viniketa » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:00 am

Sheila wrote:Some say wu wei is equivalent to Sanskrit asaṃskṛta.

"Dao’an (ad 312–85) criticized the Prajñāschools, challenging their faithfulness to authentic Buddhist positions as well as the translation methodologies behind the texts they and other Chinese Buddhists had come to rely on. In particular, he criticized the practice of ‘matching the meanings’ (geyi), by which translators seeking Chinese equivalents for Indian Buddhist technical terms and concepts borrowed heavily from Daoist literature. This ‘matching of meanings’ was a mixed blessing. Packaging Buddhist ideas in familiar terms made them amenable and understandable, but the ‘matches’ were often less than perfect, distorting or misrepresenting Buddhism. For instance, early translators chose a well-known Daoist and Confucian term, wuwei (nondeliberative activity), to translate nirvāṇa. Arguably, wuwei and nirvāṇa represent the teloi of Daoism and Buddhism, respectively, but it is not obvious that they denote the same telos (see Daoist philosophy §6; Nirvāṇa). Later, to emphasize the uniqueness of Buddhist nirvāṇa, translators dropped wuwei in favour of a transliteration, niepan. Wuwei was retained to render another important Buddhist notion, asaṃskṛta (unconditioned)."

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/G002SECT2


Great reference! If wu-wei = non-deliberative activity, then it would seem avicāraṇa is a better match; in fact, avicāraṇa could also translate as 'no action'.

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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Sara H » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:30 am

So what is the Tibetan term for Kensho?

In Gassho,

Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Jikan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:06 pm

Sara H wrote:So what is the Tibetan term for Kensho?


We can't assume there *is* one. Here's one way to find out if there is such a thing, though. From the greatest academic resource ever at any time <blushing>, wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensh%C5%8D

remembering that Kensho is the Japanese form of the Chinese term jianxing...

Buddhist monks who produced Sanskrit-Chinese translations of sutras faced many linguistic difficulties:

They chose Chinese jian 見 to translate Sanskrit dṛś दृश् "see, look", and the central Buddhist idea of dṛṣṭi दृष्टि "view, seeing (also with the mind's eye), wisdom, false view".
Translators used xing 性 or zixing 自性 "self-nature" for Sanskrit svabhāva स्वभाव "intrinsic nature, essential nature".

Thus, jianxing was the translation for dṛṣṭi-svabhāva, "view one's essential nature".


So... is there a Tibetan concept corresponding to dṛṣṭi-svabhāva? (assuming of course that the etymological work at wikipedia is plausible)
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Sara H » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:50 pm

Oh, they have something Jikan.
I have very little doubt about that.
It may not be a straight across equivilant "standard term" like the Japanese word.
But they at least mark it or reffer to it somehow.
Even if it's in somewhat poetic and flowery language.
*smiles*
Oh yes. They do.

Though it's possible the may not be allowed to talk about it due to esoteric tradition.

In Gassho,
Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby dzoki » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:26 pm

Jikan wrote:
Sara H wrote:So what is the Tibetan term for Kensho?


We can't assume there *is* one. Here's one way to find out if there is such a thing, though. From the greatest academic resource ever at any time <blushing>, wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensh%C5%8D

remembering that Kensho is the Japanese form of the Chinese term jianxing...

Buddhist monks who produced Sanskrit-Chinese translations of sutras faced many linguistic difficulties:

They chose Chinese jian 見 to translate Sanskrit dṛś दृश् "see, look", and the central Buddhist idea of dṛṣṭi दृष्टि "view, seeing (also with the mind's eye), wisdom, false view".
Translators used xing 性 or zixing 自性 "self-nature" for Sanskrit svabhāva स्वभाव "intrinsic nature, essential nature".

Thus, jianxing was the translation for dṛṣṭi-svabhāva, "view one's essential nature".


So... is there a Tibetan concept corresponding to dṛṣṭi-svabhāva? (assuming of course that the etymological work at wikipedia is plausible)


i looked into Tonny Duff´s edition of Mahavytpatti and found that dṛṣṭi is translated as blta ba in most cases and svabhava is "ngo bo nyid rang bzhin", now it did not find an equivalent in mahavyutpatti, but this is of course just a glossary of terms not a dictionary with comple sanskrit-tibetan vocabulary. In Rangjung Yeshe I found this:

ngo bo blta ba - to look into the identity of [JV]

I´d say it is a good match of the above, maybe even the exact one.
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Re: Zen to Tibetan Dictionary? *grins*

Postby Sara H » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:51 pm

Thank you dzoki!

Yes, I'd say that is what we are looking for!

Good show!

Can you post an external link or Amazon link for those?

Thank you!

In Gassho,
Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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