Difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra

[Pema Rigdzin]

Kuntu Zangpo and Dorje Chang are no different. In some contexts Kuntu Zangpo is regarded as the Dharmakaya aspect and Dorje Chang the Sambogakaya aspect, but great masters like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol have said that in reality they are the same. It just so happens that the name Kuntuzangpo seems to appear somewhat more frequently in Nyingma tantras than the name Dorje Chang.

[Sönam]

At that point (that we may have already heard in a previous place), I like to reproduce what Dudjom Rinpoché says about in his "Big Red Book" on the Nyingma School, it may reflect what Buddhist point of view is about ...

"Again, some say that the Pön tradition and the Great Perfection seem to be intimately connected because the diction of the Nyingmapa and Pönpo is similar. There are indeed many similarities in their doctrinal terminology and so forth, but since these [Pön works] were written so as to resemble the Budhist doctrine how could they be dissimilar? For example, it is taught that in India there were ten conventional [non-Buddhist schools] which paralleled the pious attendants, and, in the same manner, the self-centred buddhas, Mind-Only, Madhyamaka, Kriya, Carya, Yoga, Father Tantra, Mother Tantra, and Non-Dual Tantra. Likewise, in Tibet as well, Buddhist doctrines including all the texts of Madhyamaka, Transcendental Perfection, Vinaya, Treasury of Abidharma, and mantras; [means for attainment] of deities such as Cakrasamvara, Bhairava, and Vajrakila; and [the instructions of] the inner heat, Great Seal, Great Perfection, and so forth, have all had their Pönpo imintations. Those, however, are not original. So, how can one begin to refute such limitless, adventitious fantasies?
None the less, the priests of good fortune, [Pön] mantras, and so forth, which appear to be immadiately beneficial, may well have been revealed by the enlightened activities and emanations of the buddhas and bodhisattvas, because the range of the skilful means of the conquerors and their sons is inconceivable, as exemplified by the career of the "Truth-speaking Mendicant". In general, there are a great many [teachings] which, except for being merely called "Pön", in fact manifestly belong to the Buddhist doctrine. It is not right to pass final judgement as to wether they may be proven or not, for that merely generates misology.
Moreover, it has been said that there was a causal basis for the origination in pairs of Hinduism and Buddhism in India; Buddhist monks and Pönpos in Tibet, though there were no actual [Indian] extremist schools there; and Buddhists and Taoists in China. Therefore, so long as other traditions do not harm the teaching, we should just let them be. As it says in the Sutra of Candrapradipa [i.e. the Sutra of the King of Contemplation, Ch.7, v.6]:
Do not think hatefully of those
Extremists who inhabit the world.
Establishing compassion for them
Is a special feature of a beginner's patience;"

May, what ever is your practice, brings fruits ...
Sönam

[kalden yungdrung]

Magnus wrote:

From Lingchima institute website "Certain classes of tantras may also contain teachings on dzogchen." Your list of Bon Dzogchen practices contain many practices that normally is considered Tantric. I fail to see how this separation between Tantra and Dzogchen actually is applied?
No one said that Mahamudra and Dzogchen is the same. Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö are the same in the sense that the naked natural state is introduced directly to the student. The natural state don't care much for words and concepts.
/magnus

Hello dear Magnus,

Thanks for the reply.

Am happy to hear that You underline that Mahamudra is not the same like Dzogchen.
The Natural State can never be separated in whatever praxis one is doing.
But in some praxis some do not know their Natural State because object and subject etc.
One can not separate Trekchod from Thodgal.
Guess that Mahamudra does not work with Thodgal

Further do i mean that in Bon is also a gradual development: Sutra-Tantra- Dzogchen
There is also only Dzogchen with the Guru Yoga as the base and of course the puja of the Dzogchen protector.
So i see in my personal praxis important:

Guru Yoga - Tantra?
Dzogchen protector - Tantra
Tsalung Trulkor - Yoga for the Thodgal
Trekchod and Thodgal together as insaparable - Dzogchen

Then i mean when i do the Tantra then i am not practizing Dzogchen, whereas i am in Rigpa state.
When i pratice Thodgal i do not practice the Tantra puja etc.
Who does the Thodgal practice knows what i mean others have only these WORDS.

My view is that of Dzogchen,
My meditation practice is that of the Yidam,
My personal conduct is that of a sutra adept.

Best wisshes
Kalden Yungdrung

[heart]

Magnus wrote:

From Lingchima institute website "Certain classes of tantras may also contain teachings on dzogchen." Your list of Bon Dzogchen practices contain many practices that normally is considered Tantric. I fail to see how this separation between Tantra and Dzogchen actually is applied?
No one said that Mahamudra and Dzogchen is the same. Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö are the same in the sense that the naked natural state is introduced directly to the student. The natural state don't care much for words and concepts.
/magnus

Hello dear Magnus,

Thanks for the reply.

Am happy to hear that You underline that Mahamudra is not the same like Dzogchen.
The Natural State can never be separated in whatever praxis one is doing.
But in some praxis some do not know their Natural State because object and subject etc.
One can not separate Trekchod from Thodgal.
Guess that Mahamudra does not work with Thodgal

Further do i mean that in Bon is also a gradual development: Sutra-Tantra- Dzogchen
There is also only Dzogchen with the Guru Yoga as the base and of course the puja of the Dzogchen protector.
So i see in my personal praxis important:

Guru Yoga - Tantra?
Dzogchen protector - Tantra
Tsalung Trulkor - Yoga for the Thodgal
Trekchod and Thodgal together as insaparable - Dzogchen

Then i mean when i do the Tantra then i am not practizing Dzogchen, whereas i am in Rigpa state.
When i pratice Thodgal i do not practice the Tantra puja etc.
Who does the Thodgal practice knows what i mean others have only these WORDS.

My view is that of Dzogchen,
My meditation practice is that of the Yidam,
My personal conduct is that of a sutra adept.

Best wisshes
Kalden Yungdrung

What the teacher says in my tradition is (once again) that Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö are the same because the natural state is introduced directly to the student.

"Mahamudra and Dzogchen training means not fabricating anything, just allowing the continuity of our natural state. This is not our habit. We must train in developing a new habit, but this practice is not meditation, but familiarization. When we finally arrive at the dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation, there is nothing more to cultivate; there is not even an atom to meditate upon, and yet we are not distracted for even an instant. We need to train in this. It is also phrased as mental nondoing. ... In the guidance manuals for meditation, it is often phrased like this: Do not alter your present fresh wakefulness. Do not rearrange even as much as a hair tip. Just leave it exaclty as it is."
(Choky Nyima Rinpoche: "Familiarization" in Quintessential Dzogchen, p. 199)"

From the Yidam and Dzogchen thread viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1154&start=60

The main difference is that in Mahamudra mind and rigpa is not separated from the beginning. The student arrive at this separation gradually. But once the Mahmudra student have made this distinction there should be no problem to apply the pith instructions of Tögal.
Dzogchen is more difficult but potentially much faster. You have to separate sem (mind) and rigpa already from the beginning.
Tögal teachings assume that you have some kind of stability in Trechö.

Guru Yoga, Yidams, Protectors and Tsa-lung all belong to the lower Tantras. They are indeed very helpful and that is also why we don't try to push the doubtful distinctions between Tantra and Dzogchen. If Guru Yoga, Yidam, Protectors and Tsa-lung are a part of Dzogchen then what is the point of the distinction?

A for yidam practice you should be able to understand how to combine the view if you get teachings on the three samdhis that I know you use also in the Bon tradition. You can read about it in the books by Jean-Luc Achard.

/magnus

[kalden yungdrung]

Hello everybody,

All thanks a lot for your time and effort.

Want to outline all here, for the clearness:

There are different ways / paths to go to Lhasa
By plane, boat, by feet but we all will reach it.

That means that whereas the path is differnent the fruit is the same.

About Dzogchen can be told that Thodgal produces the rainbowbody the speciality of Dzogchen which one will never meet in other traditions. This body is not illusion.....

Thodgal is not in the path of other traditions or methods.
WHO OF YOU PRACTIZES THODGAL?
Not buy words but by awareness?

Dzogchen obtains the Dharmakaya as different path / Thodgal practice
Mahamudra will obtain the Dharmakaya as different path / no Thodgal practice inside

The way the fruit manifests in Sutras is that of the extinction (literal meaning of nirvana) of all passions, etc., with remains of aggregates and the dissolution of the mind into the Unborn Absolute Body (skye med bon sku).
This Body is pregnant with the potential of the two Form Bodies. It is obtained after death, precisely after the disconnection of the mind and the body.

The way the fruit manifests in Tantras is that of the pure illusory body (sgyu-lus) resulting from the practice of the Yidam and Dzogrim. This manifests at the time of death with the transference of consciousness into this pure illusory body. The fruit is obtained at the time of death.

The way the fruit manifests in Dzogchen is that of the Rainbow Body ('ja'-lus or Body of Light, 'od-lus) which results from Thogel practice exclusively. The fruit is obtained in this life and the manifestations of the Rainbow Body at the time of the parinirvana are indicative of the perfection of the Sambhogakaya.

In all three cases, the fruit is the same (realization of the Bodies and Wisdoms of the real nature of the mind) but its manifestations varies according to the means used to get there.

Best wishes for our individual practice

Kalden Yungdrung

[kalden yungdrung]

Dear members,

Here some quotations from Jean-Luc about the topic Mahamudra and Dzogchen.
His explanations are exact and to the point.
I allways agree with him because he is well learned (PHD) and PRACTIZES at the same time Thodgal as a hermit in the woods.
Furtheer an excellent Lotsowa / translater and very skilled also in the other Tibetan traditions.
So i take his words for true nevertheless your private opinions, collective opinions etc.
Also this because he is connected to the source with the Great masters.

Best wishes with your individual practice or your path
May the fruit come quick

Best wishes
Kalden Yungdrung




Mahamudra is a Path and a Fruit of Tantric practices. Its name has been given to a wide variety of teachings so it is difficult to discuss it properly here. In any case, when compared to Dzogchen, Mahamudra, like Sutras and Tantras, lacks the specific means of actualizing the three Bodies as visions of Path (sku-gsum lam-gyi snang-ba), namely Thogel practice.

So Dzogchen is superior to all these Paths -- not at all in terms of its view on emptiness -- because it enables the practitioner (= Emanation Body, nirmanakaya) to remain in the Trekchö state (Absolute Body, dharmakaya) where he contemplates the natural marvels (Perfection Body, sambhogakaya) of his own dynamism in Thogel.

All this is done while still on the Path and the obtainment of the Fruit appears as an on-going process passing through various stages until a threshold is reached from where one never regresses again. This is the Fruit and it is different from the progressive obtainment of it. The same happens on a much limited level during the direct introduction : one is suddenly introduced to how things are, to how the mind's nature really is. However, this does not last and one is liable to just loose this temporary realization if one does not go stratight into retreat.

In the other Paths, the Fruit is the same : Dharmakaya and the two other bodies are in potential but do not manifest outwardly at the time of the obtainment of the Fruit nor on the Path. The Dharmakaya is somehow pregnant with them and manifests them as needed.

Now there is no such Path as Thogel in the Ka-nying teachings of Mahamudra. The masters belonging to this trend put Dzogchen and Mahamudra on the same level but this is not so.

[kalden yungdrung]

Kuntu Zangpo and Dorje Chang are no different. In some contexts Kuntu Zangpo is regarded as the Dharmakaya aspect and Dorje Chang the Sambogakaya aspect, but great masters like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol have said that in reality they are the same. It just so happens that the name Kuntuzangpo seems to appear somewhat more frequently in Nyingma tantras than the name Dorje Chang.

Hello Pema Rigdzin,

Thanks for the reply.

Must say that the paths are different the fruit is the same
So every path
its Buddha Body (one of the three)
Ultimately these bodies represent/are Dharmakaya

Dharmakaya is pregnant of these Bodies.

Best wishes with our individual practice

Kalden Yungdrung

[heart]

Thodgal is not in the path of other traditions or methods.
WHO OF YOU PRACTIZES THODGAL?
Not buy words but by awareness?

So this was your point? To tell us you practice Tögal? We are so impressed.

/magnus

[kalden yungdrung]

Thodgal is not in the path of other traditions or methods.
WHO OF YOU PRACTIZES THODGAL?
Not buy words but by awareness?

So this was your point? To tell us you practice Tögal? We are so impressed.

/magnus

Hello Magnus,

Many thanks for your kind reply.

I did place serious answers like You all did here, and i/ego/illusion do not need a reward etc.
By the way who is we? I know more then I.
Persons who do the practice do understand this better.
But in Mahamudra is Thodgal not inside the practice maybe one should really add it inside or much more easier would be to finish with Dzogchen.

So here does this discussion end for me, about the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

I wish You all a further good to the point discussion regarding Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Best wishes for our individual practice and may it quick lead to the Rainbow Body.
Kalden Yungdrung

[heart]

Thodgal is not in the path of other traditions or methods.
WHO OF YOU PRACTIZES THODGAL?
Not buy words but by awareness?

So this was your point? To tell us you practice Tögal? We are so impressed.

/magnus

Hello Magnus,

Many thanks for your kind reply.

I did place serious answers like You all did here, and i/ego/illusion do not need a reward etc.
By the way who is we? I know more then I.
Persons who do the practice do understand this better.
But in Mahamudra is Thodgal not inside the practice maybe one should really add it inside or much more easier would be to finish with Dzogchen.

So here does this discussion end for me, about the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

I wish You all a further good to the point discussion regarding Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Best wishes for our individual practice and may it quick lead to the Rainbow Body.
Kalden Yungdrung

Dear Kalden,

I read your discussion on the Bon forum with Jean-Luc and I do think you misunderstand what he tell you. There is no Tögal in Mahamudra of course. Tögal is unique to Dzogchen. However since the teachers of Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling are my teachers I can assure you that they are not saying that there is Tögal in Mahamudra. They are saying that in both Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö you realize the natural state. If you fully realize the natural state in this life you will attain full enlightenment at least when you die. This is quite and achievement actually and shouldn't be looked down on. Why? Because very few Bon or Nyingma Dzogchen practitioners attain the rainbow body no matter how long they practice Tögal.

/magnus

[kalden yungdrung]

Magnus wrote:
They are saying that in both Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö you realize the natural state.

Hello Magnus,

Thanks for your reply.

We call this system Sems sde or Mahamudra.


- sems sde
- klong sde
- man ngag sde

are all aspects from Dzogchen because they recognise as the final truth the unification of awareness and emptiness.

Semde - emphasises more the awareness
Longde - emphasises more the emptiness side

Both are unified which is the essence of the Dzogchen view namely the union of emptiness and awareness.

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss and Je Tsongkapa cleary stated that this emptiness is referred to the Madyamaka view, but this is not the emptiness as referred in Dzogchen.

Many present Dzogchen teachers teach that Mahamudra and Madyamaka and Dzogchen views are not different but this is not found in the Dzogchen literature at all.

Best wishes for our individual practice

Kalden Yungdrung

[heart]

Magnus wrote:
They are saying that in both Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen Trechö you realize the natural state.

Hello Magnus,

Thanks for your reply.

We call this system Sems sde or Mahamudra.


- sems sde
- klong sde
- man ngag sde

are all aspects from Dzogchen because they recognise as the final truth the unification of awareness and emptiness.

Semde - emphasises more the emptiness side
Longde - the awareness

Both are unified which is the essence of the Dzogchen view namely the union of emptiness and awareness.

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss and Je Tsongkapa cleary stated that this emptiness is referred to the Madyamaka view, but this is not the emptiness as referred in Dzogchen.

Many present Dzogchen teachers teach that Mahamudra and Madyamaka and Dzogchen views are not different but this is not found in the Dzogchen literature at all.

Best wishes for our individual practice

Kalden Yungdrung

Dear Kalden,

First you say that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are NOT the same. Then you say that Mahmudra equals Semde?
I was telling you what my teacher told me many times, that Trechö (Mengakde) and Essence Mahamudra is the same. I am well aware of that many masters equal Mahamudra and Semde.

Mahamudra defined as inseparable bliss and emptiness is actually Tantra or Mantra Mahamudra. Please read here http://dpr.info/media/www.DPR.info-Thre ... amudra.pdf . There is an overview of the three kinds of Mahamudra by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche.

Now, if the view of emptiness refereed to by Tsongkhapa is the same as the view of emptiness in Dzogchen I find very uninteresting indeed. Some say it is, some say it isn't.

/magnus

[Pema Rigdzin]

Semde - emphasises more the emptiness side
Longde - the awareness

[/color]

And I believe you've got this backward, Kalden. Semde emphasizes awareness and Longde emphasizes emptiness.

[Sönam]

Both are unified which is the essence of the Dzogchen view namely the union of emptiness and awareness.

Kalden Yungdrung

Has there been a moment when it was desunified ? ... non-separability!

[kalden yungdrung]

Semde - emphasises more the emptiness side
Longde - the awareness

[/color]

And I believe you've got this backward, Kalden. Semde emphasizes awareness and Longde emphasizes emptiness.

Hello Pema Rigdzin,

Thanks for the reply.

Well you were very attentive, like it.
You are right will change it immediately.
Many thanks for the hint.


Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung