Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:18 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Anyway this is very slippery terminology. Seriously. There is no factual basis for believing one came before the other. No point really.


I think the author's point that Buddhist tantra has a clear path of development, whereas the Hindu ones do not seem to exhibit such developmental characteristics, is interesting. At least from a textual analysis POV, there is merit to think so.

You don't agree obviously, but that is ok. Perhaps more research will come to light that will change either of our views.


My opinion is that this reflects the Hindu vs. Buddhist culture in India. Buddhism has always been very much about the letter and precision especially when it comes to lineages of deities and buddhas. Hindu yogis have a much more nebulous view of reality, especially history. They don't have a history keeping function. Screwing up timelines is fine especially if you are making a cool point. That's something to consider.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:21 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"The Yoga of the Continuously Flowing River," a very specific dharma term, that you should learn more about.
Yes, well, if you are going to post stuff on a public board that only those that know about it, will be benefited by it, it doesn't really do much good does it? How about posting a link to an explanation of the practice rather than being a cryptic mystical snob?

Compassion for the ignorant is something you should learn more about. ;)
:namaste:


Hay Soos! You are wound up tight. Relax. Okay, now, I'm just nudging you a little. Check out "Samadhi of the Continuous Flowing River." It's a very special and sweet deal. Explore and see what you can find of this. Patrul Rinpoche, Milarepa, Gampopa, and many many TB teachers speak of it. Very wonderful. Please try to know more about it.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"The Yoga of the Continuously Flowing River," a very specific dharma term, that you should learn more about.
Yes, well, if you are going to post stuff on a public board that only those that know about it, will be benefited by it, it doesn't really do much good does it? How about posting a link to an explanation of the practice rather than being a cryptic mystical snob?

Compassion for the ignorant is something you should learn more about. ;)
:namaste:


BTW Greg, You are a very nice teacher. I'm really glad to see you again here.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby Rakshasa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:35 am

Deepbluehum,

Are you from India/Hindu?

Vedas are not tantra but they are set of prayers in Indo-Aryan language. Zenda Avesta, which is a sister religion of the Irano-Aryans, also contains similar hymns which are prayers to their gods. Even if Tantra originated before Buddhism, it certainly did not originate from "Hinduism" - such a uniform religion did not exist back then. In fact, even the term came into existence in the medieval times as a reaction to the invading Muslims. The later Hindu texts like Puranas, Smritis etc categorize the Tantrics in the same derogatory class that it puts Buddhists and Jains into.

There were people living in India even before the Indo-Aryans became dominant and it is from that root that Tantras originated from. Read the article that I posted, it is not full of claims, but analysis and evidence. Or otherwise you could directly refer to Dr. Benyotosh Bhattacharya's work related to Tantrism in India.

Right from the British Colonial times, Indian history has been portrayed right from the arrival of Indo-Aryans, it is falsely propagated that they were the ones to bring "civilization" to India. I dont subscribe to such views and even some eminent historians have also claimed that most of modern Hinduism actually came from the native Dravidian culture.
User avatar
Rakshasa
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:29 am

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:16 am

Rakshasa wrote:Deepbluehum,

Are you from India/Hindu?

Vedas are not tantra but they are set of prayers in Indo-Aryan language. Zenda Avesta, which is a sister religion of the Irano-Aryans, also contains similar hymns which are prayers to their gods. Even if Tantra originated before Buddhism, it certainly did not originate from "Hinduism" - such a uniform religion did not exist back then. In fact, even the term came into existence in the medieval times as a reaction to the invading Muslims. The later Hindu texts like Puranas, Smritis etc categorize the Tantrics in the same derogatory class that it puts Buddhists and Jains into.

There were people living in India even before the Indo-Aryans became dominant and it is from that root that Tantras originated from. Read the article that I posted, it is not full of claims, but analysis and evidence. Or otherwise you could directly refer to Dr. Benyotosh Bhattacharya's work related to Tantrism in India.

Right from the British Colonial times, Indian history has been portrayed right from the arrival of Indo-Aryans, it is falsely propagated that they were the ones to bring "civilization" to India. I dont subscribe to such views and even some eminent historians have also claimed that most of modern Hinduism actually came from the native Dravidian culture.


Yeah,the Vedas are mainly prayers,or at least the Rig Veda is(that's the only one I've read.)don't know about the other ones though.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
Red Faced Buddha
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:16 am
Location: The Middle of Nowhere

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby heart » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:17 am

Red Faced Buddha wrote:Hinduism.However Shaivism isn't Hinduism,it is a school of Hinduism that worships Shiva as the supreme being.


It is. Hinduism is not one religion, it is a huge conglomerate of religions that are loosely connected and that share a common cultural background.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 2929
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:21 am

Well not only prayers, but also mantras, i.e., Gayatri. I did not say tantra was Hindu. But there are tantras that predate Buddha, and those tantras relate to Shiva.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby consciousness » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:09 am

Blue Garuda wrote:The deities involved are not bound by timelines invented by humans, and nobody knows which ones were first to be discovered by humans or first to be given names in oral or written tradition.

Although Kali as a name has a very long history, the black goddess figure we know now is quite possibly less old than Vajrayogini's first mention.

Tara, Ganesha, Garuda etc. appear in both and the same 'chicken and egg' quest applies.

The way in which deities are regarded is also entirely different so comparing one with the other is pretty pointless.

I would take all claims of primacy and superiority with a pinch of salt - it is really of no relevance as they bear no relation to the timeless nature of those deities.


What is the first historical mention of Vajrayogini? Was her practice as ascribed by actual historical credentials not from circa 8th century? After Padmasambhava introduced Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet.


I never believe tantra was invented by hinduism, however, tantra first practised by shaivites and shaktas precede the vedic assimilation of them in modern hinduism.

One of the earliest mentioning of the Goddess Kali was from the Mahabharat, around 1400BC, recalls the prayer of the prince Arjun to Kali:
namaste siddha senaani aarye mandaravaasinee
kumaaree kaalee kapaalee kapile krishna pingale ||

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCm2f_jP-1MC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=I+bow+to+Thee,+O+leader+of+Yogins,+O+Thou+that+art+identical+with+Braahman,&source=bl&ots=U9ZQwW2HEG&sig=fWA13jHOhRj8UC_6sp41HVx4OgU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cy56UIetCueh0QXDj4HwBw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20bow%20to%20Thee%2C%20O%20leader%20of%20Yogins%2C%20O%20Thou%20that%20art%20identical%20with%20Braahman%2C&f=false

with later Elucidation of Kali, Chamunda in further details in the Devī Māhātmya
^ Coburn, Thomas B., Devī Māhātmya. p 95
sarva budh dakini
consciousness
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:54 am

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:07 pm

consciousness wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:The deities involved are not bound by timelines invented by humans, and nobody knows which ones were first to be discovered by humans or first to be given names in oral or written tradition.

Although Kali as a name has a very long history, the black goddess figure we know now is quite possibly less old than Vajrayogini's first mention.

Tara, Ganesha, Garuda etc. appear in both and the same 'chicken and egg' quest applies.

The way in which deities are regarded is also entirely different so comparing one with the other is pretty pointless.

I would take all claims of primacy and superiority with a pinch of salt - it is really of no relevance as they bear no relation to the timeless nature of those deities.


What is the first historical mention of Vajrayogini? Was her practice as ascribed by actual historical credentials not from circa 8th century? After Padmasambhava introduced Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet.


I never believe tantra was invented by hinduism, however, tantra first practised by shaivites and shaktas precede the vedic assimilation of them in modern hinduism.

One of the earliest mentioning of the Goddess Kali was from the Mahabharat, around 1400BC, recalls the prayer of the prince Arjun to Kali:
namaste siddha senaani aarye mandaravaasinee
kumaaree kaalee kapaalee kapile krishna pingale ||

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCm2f_jP-1MC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=I+bow+to+Thee,+O+leader+of+Yogins,+O+Thou+that+art+identical+with+Braahman,&source=bl&ots=U9ZQwW2HEG&sig=fWA13jHOhRj8UC_6sp41HVx4OgU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cy56UIetCueh0QXDj4HwBw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20bow%20to%20Thee%2C%20O%20leader%20of%20Yogins%2C%20O%20Thou%20that%20art%20identical%20with%20Braahman%2C&f=false

with later Elucidation of Kali, Chamunda in further details in the Devī Māhātmya
^ Coburn, Thomas B., Devī Māhātmya. p 95


Wasn't the Mahabharata written about the same time the Buddha was around?(Either a few hundred years before or after.)I don't think it was written as far back as 1400 BC.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
Red Faced Buddha
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:16 am
Location: The Middle of Nowhere

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:27 pm

Mahabharat is 4th Cen BCE
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Shaivite and Buddhst Tantra. Which came first?

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:34 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Mahabharat is 4th Cen BCE


Thought so.It was either 500 or 400 B.C(cookie for both of us :twothumbsup: .)
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
Red Faced Buddha
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:16 am
Location: The Middle of Nowhere

Previous

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jeeprs and 23 guests

>