[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Anyway, what about people break and entering illegally in some chicken farms and exposing the truth about chickens living in horrible conditions. If you are interested in information on animal cruelty you can google PETA, wich stands for: People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals. That's form of a deception, the way they obtain evidence.
What about an unercover police who with lies save people's lives? Like a policeman posing as a hitmen and ends up saving someone?
What about police integrity or the office of the police ombudsmen? They have to sometimes do undercover work in order to catch police who might be breaking the law themselves?
So the question should be: When is it good to lie?
Seishin wrote:Ervin wrote:It's always ok or right to lie, but its not always good.
This doesn't make sense.
Gasho. I'll try and explain somehow how there is no wrong. If its wrong to kill for instance then how would you survive? Why is it ok or right to kill an animal for food but its not right to kill a human for food? Some people say that even plants feel pain because of their reactions to outside stimuli.
There is law of the land you live in and it doesn't and at this stage can't have in place a policy that protects health and safety of all living beings.
There fore there is no right or wrong in morality and ethics, but there is good and evil.
Evil action would be killing for o other reason but enjoyment for instance, but its not wrong. Are people fishing tor fun only doing evil. People who have no need for fishing. They actually spend lots of money on equipment and boats and what not. How about people hunting for fun?
There are people who think there is nothing wrong with that. Others think that's as bad as murder. It all depends on whom you talk to and in wich era do you live
So called wrong constantly changes.
Lying is considered an unwholesome action of speech.
Like all actions the consequences are going to depend on: 1. the motivation for lying, 2. how big or small the lie was, 3. whether you take the lying right through to the end (or keep lying) or if you break off when you realise you are doing something unwholesome and 4. whether you felt good or bad about the lying.
Lying has negative consequences in the here and now (if people discover you are lying then they will not trust what you say) and in the future (like being born with speech impediments or suffering from various physical ailments).
If one can avoid lying they should.
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
Either way, the answer is the same: never. Yet we still do, and live through it, and sometimes the karmic consequences aren't so bad.
As for "skillful means", such means don't call for lies. There are many different ways to present the "facts".
Okay??? I don't know if they are okay. Of course the intention will have a bearing on the consequences, but intention is only one part of the equation.dakini_boi wrote:The 7 nonvirtues of body and speech (killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, harsh, divisive, and idle speech) are actions which generally cause harm to beings. However, according to Mahayana principles, any of these are ok if the sincere intention is to benefit beings.
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
Instant karma is gonna get you. (At least it got me.)
Truthfully (for once at least)
Ervin: "safety of all beings" Thank you!
I heard Great Boddhisattva's selfless methods are not in the domain of lie-not lie, to awaken beings.
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