Thamal gyi shepa vs. baby rigpa vs. rigpa (etc.)

[monktastic]

andrew108, deepbluehum: thank you! I've been confused by the terminology used in books, but I will let that go.

[monktastic]

I should also apologize. Much of my questioning could have been answered by carefully re-reading Clarifying The Natural State. For example, in describing lesser one-pointedness, Dakpo Tashi Namgyal has this to say (pp. 80):

During the ensuing perceptions, you perceive them with a sense of delight, but for the most part they are a solid reality.

During the ensuing certainty, whenever you embrace it with a mindful presence, you have an experience of aware emptiness, but it is accompanied by the attitude of thinking, "This is empty! This is a mental experience!"

In other words, it's all part of the process.

On the other hand, some things are still confusing: before receiving the initial pointing out, he says one should have the certainty of experience that thoughts are an aware emptiness (pp. 33) and that appearances are a perceived emptiness (pp. 34); meanwhile, in the description of greater one-pointedness (pp. 81), he says one may have the experience that thoughts are an aware emptiness and appearances are a perceived emptiness.

In any case, no matter. It's clear now what to do until I have a proper teacher.

[underthetree]

Out of interest, did you follow ChNNR's last retreat? If so, you received direct introduction. I would suggest downloading the Guruyoga book here: http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=455. Then you'd have a complete practice to be getting on with. Having spent quite a bit of fruitful time trying to extrapolate methods etc from books for which I didn't have transmission or lung, I can report that the difference is immense.

[monktastic]

Out of interest, did you follow ChNNR's last retreat? If so, you received direct introduction.

Yes, but it would seem I was too dense to have noticed anything during it . More obscuration clearing for me! (Also, an admission: I only tuned in for a few of the sessions, including the D.I. I had trouble following a lot of it, and since the timing was very inconvenient, I stopped attending. )

I would suggest downloading the Guruyoga book here: http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=455. Then you'd have a complete practice to be getting on with. Having spent quite a bit of fruitful time trying to extrapolate methods etc from books for which I didn't have transmission or lung, I can report that the difference is immense.

Thank you, I may do that. Right now it seems I'm more on track to practice Mahamudra, and I may want to avoid mixing up my instructions. Should I practice this anyway?

[underthetree]

Should I practice this anyway?

Well, it works.

[monktastic]

Rigpa, "ordinary mind," and "the natural state" are all called "non-dual", and are sometimes used interchangeably. But rigpa is legitimately non-dual in the sense that authentic recognition of it precludes the experience of any form of duality. The same cannot be said of "the natural state," where one is simply allowing dualities to subside by not grasping them. That's why I've been so utterly confused. The meaning of "non-dual" in those cases is very different.

In the unlikely event that anyone else was as confused as I was about the above, I'd like to mention that from reading more Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, it's a little more clear. The "nondual" in "nondual awareness" when used for baby rigpa refers primarily to the mode of recognition of awareness itself:

Unless we look into the nature of mind we will never recognize it. But this is true only in the beginning. Once you grow more familiar with it, there is no need to look here or there, or to do anything. Recognition happens spontaneously because of being used to recognizing, to some extent. When there is a subject and object in the recognition, this is none other than dualistic mind.

This is similar to the usage of "self-aware" in Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "self-aware presence of mind." This phrasing is less difficult for me, since it is distinct from the description of rigpa as non-dual. Gradually, such non-dual awareness does lead to non-dual perception, but that's not until much later (the completion of the yoga of one-pointedness).

Oh, also, there's this amazing little quote from Lama Gendun Rinpoche's "Heart Advice":

The crucial difference between fruitless states of meditation and true meditation is the presence of this awake and relaxed self-awareness of the mind, because only in this state of recollection is it possible for our mind to change over from mere mental calm to intuitive insight into its own true nature.

Indeed it is crucial, and I'm glad I've resolved it for myself. Thanks for all the help! (And in particular, underthetree, thank you for the "relax" guidance. It has really revamped my practice.

[monktastic]

I don't know if anyone still reads the Mahamudra forum, given that the last posting was in November

I have a question which probably needn't be exposed to the whole forum, and I didn't want to make a whole separate thread for it. If anyone here feels knowledgable about the development of rigpa, recognition of thamal gyi shepa, etc., and feels comfortable discussing it, please PM me. It's not exactly practice-related, but it does require me sharing some personal information. In some sense it is more appropriate as a student-teacher question, but not entirely.